Can we legally prevent post-editors to use the title of "translator"? Trådens avsändare: Daniel Frisano
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Daniel Frisano 
Italien
Local time: 18:55
Medlem (2008)
Engelska till Italienska
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Can we legally prevent post-editors from using the title of "translator"?
Translating means analysing, conceiving, shaping and creating (among other things), and patching up some machine work requires none of these skills. In fact, it barely requires any skills at all.
If you make a living out of MTPE, good for you, just don't call yourself something you aren't.
A bricklayer is not an architect.
| | | | Heike Holthaus
USA
Local time: 12:55
Medlem (2012)
Engelska till Tyska
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| Effective and meaningful post-editing should be performed by a skilled translator | May 12 |
"...patching up some machine work requires none of these skills. In fact, it barely requires any skills at all."
I beg to differ. Post-editing should always be performed by a skilled and experienced translator. You can't fix something if you don't know that it is wrong.
Post-editing is a service offered by a translator just as editing and proofreading a translation is. We wouldn't want to prevent a translator who specializes in editing/proofreading from using the title... See more "...patching up some machine work requires none of these skills. In fact, it barely requires any skills at all."
I beg to differ. Post-editing should always be performed by a skilled and experienced translator. You can't fix something if you don't know that it is wrong.
Post-editing is a service offered by a translator just as editing and proofreading a translation is. We wouldn't want to prevent a translator who specializes in editing/proofreading from using the title translator either, right? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Architects don't deal with bricks, they deal with concepts and final shapes | May 12 |
A bricklayer is not an architect.
Translator is just a manual bricklayer carrying bricks in hands and mixing concrete with a shovel.
MT editor is a mechanized bricklayer with a wheelbarrow to carry bricks and an electric concrete mixer.
Who will work faster and be less tired in the evening?
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Using electronic pocket calculators used to be a "bad habit" too.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 18:55
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
+ ...
Heike Holthaus wrote:
"...patching up some machine work requires none of these skills. In fact, it barely requires any skills at all."
I beg to differ. Post-editing should always be performed by a skilled and experienced translator. You can't fix something if you don't know that it is wrong.
Post-editing is a service offered by a translator just as editing and proofreading a translation is. We wouldn't want to prevent a translator who specializes in editing/proofreading from using the title translator either, right?
Yes, but…In any other profession, if you hire someone to *fix* something, it’ll be MORE expensive than creating it from scratch. For instance, house renovation or old house restructuring turns out MORE expensive than building a house from scratch. I’m talking about the projecting service here. It’s because an architect has much more things to think about, combine and optimize when reconstructing something vs. when starting with a blank space.
It is only in translation that fixing and reorganizing something is available at a much cheaper rate than creation from scratch. Should be the other way round.
| | | | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 18:55
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
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| Denis Fesik
Local time: 19:55
Engelska till Ryska
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I've seen so many examples of bad illustrations here that it would make sense to put them together in a book. Comparing MT in MTPE to a mechanizef tool is one such example for sure. When you're using a tool, you'll expect it to perform its function properly by design, but when you're using MT, the only valid expectation will be that it'll ef up as much of your translation as possible. Checked many times, just trust the old man (due regard being paid to my language pair and proz tagline)
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AllegroTrans
Storbritannien
Local time: 17:55
Franska till Engelska
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| "Legally prevent"?? | May 12 |
I don't think any court would entertain such a case.
| | | | Daryo
Storbritannien
Local time: 17:55
Serbiska till Engelska
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AllegroTrans wrote:
I don't think any court would entertain such a case.
**IF** translators ever manage to achieve the same level of professional organisation as accountants / architects / doctors, that would be an open and shut case.
Try to call yourself an accountant / architect / doctor in the same way anyone can call themselves a 'translator' and see how far you'll go...
BUT as of now, those whose interest is in keeping the status quo have far more influence than those who need a change to the status quo - so for the time being, it's just a nice idea ...
as for
Using electronic pocket calculators used to be a "bad habit" too.
there is 'one minor detail' that makes a fundamental difference, and renders the comparison utterly meaningless:
-- even the most complex calculation is ALWAYS deterministic - in a sense that there is only one possible 'right result' – so any calculator (be it of the pocket or supercomputer variety) is bound to really help.
while
-- there is rarely a 'one and only, always automatically applicable' translation for a word, and even less for a whole text, despite the wishful thinking of MT/AI worshippers. There is this annoying fact that can NOT be swept under the carpet: a translation starts with understanding the ST – so far and for the foreseeable future, no MT/AI is capable of that.
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italien
Local time: 18:55
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Tyska
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| provocation now... | May 15 |
With 'translator' not being a protected title, it would be quite difficult getting it protected against illicit use... But there's an aspect that could become very important.
As others already said, in order to do post editing well, you'll need to be a very good and experienced translator with knowledge of the topic, the audience and the text's purpose, an eye for errors in grammar and syntax as well as a sense of meaning and style.
You'll also do post editing only on suitable conten... See more With 'translator' not being a protected title, it would be quite difficult getting it protected against illicit use... But there's an aspect that could become very important.
As others already said, in order to do post editing well, you'll need to be a very good and experienced translator with knowledge of the topic, the audience and the text's purpose, an eye for errors in grammar and syntax as well as a sense of meaning and style.
You'll also do post editing only on suitable content, as otherwise you'd end up with having to translate all from scratch. Ideally, you'll work on output produced by trained engines (not just putting the text into a generalist MT tool).
As such a post-editor, you'll have a background and many years of experience in translating.
Well, guess what would happen _if_ most of the translation work should end being done through MTPE...: Those skilled translators would literally go extinct. With all the imaginable implications. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Stephen Emm
Local time: 17:55
Franska till Engelska
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| Post-Editing and Translation are not the same thing! | May 22 |
Some commenters on this forum seem to be viewing post-editing as some sort of renovation job, requiring complex skills, but post-editing should not be approached in this way. Post-editing requires that you accept the translation at face value and edit any glaring mistakes, inconsistencies. punctuation errors, etc. It is not some sort of translation re-writing job. You are not being paid a translation rate so you should not be translating or re-translating the text in question.
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Daryo
Storbritannien
Local time: 17:55
Serbiska till Engelska
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| The difference between 'supposed to be' and 'actually is' | May 23 |
Stephen Emm wrote:
Some commenters on this forum seem to be viewing post-editing as some sort of renovation job, requiring complex skills, but post-editing should not be approached in this way. Post-editing requires that you accept the translation at face value and edit any glaring mistakes, inconsistencies. punctuation errors, etc. It is not some sort of translation re-writing job. You are not being paid a translation rate so you should not be translating or re-translating the text in question.
What you describe is nothing more than a pretence of following a process (PEMT) that is itself a pretence of 'translating'.
The difference between 'supposed to be' and 'actually is' is the missing element in what you said.
PEMT is sold to clients as being a translation as any other, supposedly 'a real translation'. Any REAL translation that can justify that label will include as first step understanding the Source Text.
No Ifs, no Buts, no Maybes - there is no way you can correctly translate a text you don't understand.
As Machine Translation does NOT include any kind of 'undertaking the Source Text', but only statistical guessing, the human doing the '(Post) Editing' has to do that bit, i.e. first read very attentitvely the ST and understand it. That's how ANY 'editing' of someone else's translation should be done. Which totally EXCUDES any idea of 'accepting the MT output at its face value'.
If you limit yourself to 'accept the translation at face value and edit any glaring mistakes, inconsistencies. punctuation errors, etc' (which I have no doubts is actually happening a lot) that is not even PEMT, that's merely hiding/glossing over the most obvious errors. With no guarantee whatsoever that 'the nice sounding bits' have any actual connection with what's said in the ST!
In short, any proper/real 'editing' of a translation IS a kind of renovation job. Not to be confused with only sweeping under the carpet the most obvious rubbish.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 18:55
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
+ ...
Stephen Emm wrote:
Some commenters on this forum seem to be viewing post-editing as some sort of renovation job, requiring complex skills, but post-editing should not be approached in this way. Post-editing requires that you accept the translation at face value and edit any glaring mistakes, inconsistencies. punctuation errors, etc. It is not some sort of translation re-writing job. You are not being paid a translation rate so you should not be translating or re-translating the text in question.
Yes, it’s like renovation, in a sense that you have to dig into material previously done by someone else (be it a human or machine). Maybe there is a better word, quality control? Just ask finance and food science experts how much audits and quality control cost.
You are talking about punctuation. Are you aware of what minor, major and critical error category stand for? You are focused on punctuation while a mistake that can jeopardize a client’s business slips through.
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