Why I\'m not renewing my Platinum membership.... (ProZ.com: Translator Coop)

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Why I\'m not renewing my Platinum membership....
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Why I\'m not renewing my Platinum membership....

Trådens avsändare: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL

Eva Blanar

Ungern
Local time: 19:24
Engelska till Ungerska
+ ...

You've found what to be proud of...

Nov 19, 2002

It is up to you to decide if you are ready to pay for the service you use or you make use of the (rare) possibility of using an excellent service you do not pay for. But I find absolutely outrageous that you come to the forum to explain how clever you are when you do so! This is so disappointing, so small!

If this site, as it is, is not good enough for you, if you want to get rid of the \"non-professional\" members of the community, why don\'t you initiate the establishment of an \"inner circle\" within or outside ProZ.com? Do you really think that \"amongst the translators community, Proz is now regarded as the safe heaven for agencies who are looking for cheap labour\"? If so, I can provide you with a list of sites where shameful prices are offered and accepted.

It is true that there are empty profiles, it is true that there may be abuse, but the open character of the site may help in preventing further abuse. (By the way I wonder if you can indicate one single translation website with no abuse at all.) From what you wrote, I concluded that translators like myself (= Eastern Europe + low prices) make you feel uncomfortable. Well, why don\'t you set up a club or an inner sanctuary for the \"WASP\" translators: I promise you I won\'t ever apply for the membership there! But PLEASE stop explaining us how dumb we are that we ARE ready to pay those 120 bucks. ▲ Collapse

Marcus Malabad

Kanada
Tyska till Engelska
+ ...

another ploy to fish for something unsaid?

Nov 19, 2002

You and your colleague above both acknowledge the valuable benefits that you\'ve reaped from this site while being paid members. Indeed, you prefix your announcement by stating that you like this and this feature of the site.

So, if you like it (forget for a minute what you don\'t like), why not support it with the 120 bucks you so cringe to shelve out? A site like this does not and will not exist without the membership fees we all pay.

Obviously in your world, you\'d prefer to reap benefits without paying for them.

You claim to make suggestions that would improve the site, but you railroad Henry by dangling the membership fee as bait as if to say: \"Here Henry, I won\'t pay you if you don\'t do as I say.\"

Notice the messages of support contradicting you. Most say that they have not landed jobs through the site but the peripheral and additional benefits justify and even overweigh the meager 120 dollars.

In no way did Henry address your voluntary departure with aggression. He simply says that you ACT the guest of a site that admittedly provides you with several advantages. A guest is gracious and WILL NEVER criticize a host who gives freely. Someone who does is uncouth and a boor.

Henry has been an excellent host despite your whining. There are legion behind his efforts because his efforts have proven to be useful (while bringing money to boot!).

This site has never been and is not the cause of rates going down or of members offering them. Consider a telephone book with its myriad services and companies offering multitudinous rates and fees. Do you blame the Yellow Pages just because Joe Blow offers 2 cents and you 10? You can\'t handle the competition and others undercut you (which happens everywhere, by the way), so you point your finger at Henry for providing the very medium where you can advertise your services! Methinks the man doth protest too much.

You suggest offloading empty profiles and making the site cater to \"professionals\". This will never happen. It has been obvious from the very beginning that the site\'s philosophy is exactly the opposite: this is an open directory. Language amateurs are welcome (and welcome to grow and learn!). The very non-pros you so dislike will stay (while you don\'t). This is a fact that everybody will simply have to swallow and accept. It\'s so easy to say: \"don\'t like it, good riddance\". But in this instance, without any offense meant, this phrase is very apt.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-11-30 14:59 ] ▲ Collapse

Mats Wiman

Sverige
Local time: 19:24
Medlem (2000)
Tyska till Svenska
+ ...

In memoriam

Constructive criticism is welcome !

Nov 19, 2002

Giovanni!

You said: \"but constructive criticism is not welcome, apparently.\"

Who said that? Constructive criticism implies the action \'construct\' - not \'pull down\' - and that is what you are doing with your posting.

\"Proz.com is a great site and has allowed me to make a lot of new friends. \"

Some friends! I do not know you but my reaction is:

\"OK if this guy doesn\'t understand more - I\'m happy to see him go\".

Still: I hope you will digest contructively what we all said and realise that your judgment so far is one-sided, narrow and egoistic.

A community is like the normal curve or life if you will: There are those and these but you don\'t discontinue your subscription to life just because you dislike some facets of it.

There are only three alternatives:

1. Start your own perfect site

or

2. Pay the small sum of $ 120 and contribute in a constructive way to the improvement of the site

3. Don\'t pay and contribute in a constructive way to the improvement of the site

If you consider yourself to be a professional, there is no other alternative.

Why not participate in the moderator/member powwow on Sunday at 14.00.

(write me at MatsWiman@swipnet.se)

Mats Wiman

Happy and voluntary Platimum member ▲ Collapse

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL

Storbritannien
Local time: 18:24
Engelska till Italienska

TOPIC STARTER

Marcus...

Nov 19, 2002

Marcus wrote:

\"Obviously in your world, you\'d prefer to reap benefits without paying for them. There\'s a word for that: freeloader.

Or parasite\".

Marcus,

If we are allowed to reap benefits without paying, blame Henry for that, not me.

Support? I supported Proz for one year, I waited and waited and nothing I like it\'s happening. So, I decided to stop supporting, at least financially. If things change, then I will start supporting the site again. You cannot call me a parasite or a freeloader.

Eva wrote

\"From what you wrote, I concluded that translators like myself (= Eastern Europe + low prices) make you feel uncomfortable. Well, why don\'t you set up a club or an inner sanctuary for the \"WASP\" translators: I promise you I won\'t ever apply for the membership there!\"

Eva, please, save this nonsense for someone else. I never said anything like that at all.

Giovanni

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-11-19 16:33 ] ▲ Collapse

Nathalie M. Girard, ALHC (X)

Engelska till Franska
+ ...

Fully agree with Mary Richards

Nov 19, 2002

Quote:

I have made numerous contacts, even, if I may be so bold as to say so, forged relationships and friendships through ProZ...

...I have renewed my membership because ProZ is worthy of support. Quite simply there would be an empty space in my life without it - an empty space that I would happily pay $120 not to have...

Mary

Count me in folks! ... See more

Quote:

I have made numerous contacts, even, if I may be so bold as to say so, forged relationships and friendships through ProZ...

...I have renewed my membership because ProZ is worthy of support. Quite simply there would be an empty space in my life without it - an empty space that I would happily pay $120 not to have...

Mary

Count me in folks!

Mary, you said it best!!!

I LOVE PROZ, I have met such wonderful people, and I think that Henry and his team are doing a SUPERB JOB

I renewed (extended) my membership even though it was not yet expired...

Proz is more than worthy of all my support and I want to be a part of this great site!

All the members who gather here, united together from all corners of the world, are building a *force* - just watch where we will be in another 4 years folks!

I want to support Henry, I want to help my colleagues and new comers to the profession.

I learn something new every day on Proz.

There is such a great exchange of information created by the large number of people who contribute to this site... The more we share, the more we have

There are tons of websites out there related to our profession (aka our passion!)... but there are NONE who come anywhere remotely close to Proz.com for the sharing, caring and amazing community.

Absolutely NONE.

Cheers to all of you my dearest colleagues, in all language pairs... Every single one of *YOU* make Proz a wonderful place for me to be... and I am forever grateful

Nathalie ▲ Collapse

Maria Rosich Andreu

Spanien
Local time: 19:24
Medlem (2003)
Nederländska till Spanska
+ ...

deffending newbies

Nov 19, 2002

Hi all!

I am writing to say that I agree completely with domenica. I just moved into another country and after almost two years of working as a translator for a bookpublisher in Barcelona, I find myself having to look for contacts to try to be a full-time freelancer.

After moving, about 10 days ago, I discovered proz. If i didn\'t become Platinum yet is, quite frankly, because I don\'t have much money for that at the moment, and I am waiting to gather some more BrowniZ or get my economic situation in control. But I think this is a great site, and it has been of great help to me since I discovered it. And I hope that my answers are also helping others.

Of course there will be people out there to profit the work of others, and as I am a non paying member, you might regard me as one of them. But give the newbies some time before they go Platinum! And also time enough to fill their profiles! Not everybody is a parasite.

I do not regard myself as one.

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Carolyn Denoncourt (X)

USA
Local time: 13:24
Franska till Engelska
+ ...

Platinum is for professionals

Nov 19, 2002

In my opinion, Platinum membership is the service that “professionals” are most likely to want and to need to use in their work. I paid for Platinum solely in order to have unlimited access to the Agency Blue Board. I don’t want to waste my time doing jobs for people who have empty profiles and are not establishing a track record of professional dealings with translators. After I paid for Platinum membership, the opportunity to host a web page became an added feature. I plan to make use of that service as well.

I enjoyed my free membership in Proz for all the reasons so well articulated by Mary and Jack and SusanS. But I pay for Platinum membership precisely because it enables me to advance my professional interests.

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Martin Schmurr

Local time: 19:24
Italienska till Tyska

the main dilemma

Nov 19, 2002

Dear Giovanni,

Henry was hard, but he was justified: your propaganda to stop being Platinum seemed an attempt to damage ProZ. But apart from Platinum or not, I think the main ProZ dilemma is:

it would be easy to exclude the most annoying amateurs by just requiring a profile of let\'s say 220 chars minimum, but Henry refuses this because he\'s proud of the 40.000 ProZ members. Dear Henry, would ProZ be so shameworthy if it had 30.000 members? ProZ would still be open to all and not elitist - on the other hand it seems elitist what you wrote:

\"No one likes a guest who criticizes not only the meal, but also his fellow diners.\" because it makes me think that non-Platinums are not allowed to express criticism in the forums! I do hope I misunderstood you there! ▲ Collapse

David Sirett
Local time: 19:24
Franska till Engelska
+ ...

"Member", not "Guest"!!

Nov 19, 2002

While I broadly agree with what Henry said in his first response, I must take issue with his statement that non-paying members are here as \"guests\" of the paying members. I am an active member, contributing to the life of this site. I have so far chosen not to take up the OPTIONAL Platinum status, mainly because I am not at present using ProZ for serious work hunting. Nevertheless, I am certainly not just a passing guest sponging off the Platinum members.

Regards
... See more

Sonja Tomaskovic (X)

Tyskland
Local time: 19:24
Engelska till Tyska
+ ...

I wasn't professional before I realized what Proz offers me

Nov 19, 2002

Hi Giovanni,

I am (or was) apparently that kind of translator you call \"unprofessional\". When I came to Proz (about 1½ years ago) I was just looking for a place to advertise my services.

I went to a lot of communities like Proz (Aquarius, Foreignword, trally, manual-forum, translatorscafe... just to name a few), and I put my profile on all of these pages.

I soon started bidding for jobs on Proz and Aquarius, but to be honest, I never got any single of them. Even if my pricing was - at the very beginning - very low (I did not know what to charge for my services, so I just started with the lowest I could think of). Nevertheless, no job offer.

Then my next thought was to pay for membership. At that time, Proz was still working fine even if one did not pay for membership, so I decided to become a paying Aquarius member, to benefit from all the advantages paying members have.

The cut this story short: this was a bad idea. I did not receive any jobs from Aquarius, no technical support, no communication between translators, no help with translations, NOTHING.

There were no advantages for me on Aquarius.

(No offence to those who enjoy to work with Aquarius; I am just saying it did not work FOR ME!)

At the moment I am a Premium member here at Proz and I am planning to upgrade to Platinum. You might ask why, since I have such a bad experience with translator communities.

Above all, I have learned that becoming professional does not mean to have a profile on any kind of community, home page or whatever. More over, a community can never provide you with serious jobs. This is still the internet and it can fool you if you don\'t keep your eyes open.

It is up to oneself to gain experience, collect references, learn to do one\'s job well and to step out to any agency and advertise oneself. Proz offers you a great opportunity to learn from fellow translators how to do that.

Just take a look at all the agencies that have entered their profile here. Take a look at the Blue Board. Have you ever graded an agency you have worked with? If so, you might have received feedback from this agency. At least, I have.

It is amazing, isn\'t it? An agency, who should be using this page to promote job offers, replys on the feedback I gave them on the Blue Board. Why?

Maybe because this agency, and a lot of other agencies and translators, too, have realized that this is the PLACE TO BE. This is where translators are communicating, where agencies are being graded, where help with technical terms is provided and even job offers can be posted.

Even if you decide to be a non-paying member, you will soon realize that no other translator community can offer you what Proz does. Here, you are up-to-date. For a freelance translator this place means not being alone. There is a huge community out there who can help you, no matter if you have trouble with an agency or a technical term.

Even translation agencies have realized that.

Regards,

Sonja

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-11-19 18:27 ] ▲ Collapse

Francesco Volpe

Italien
Local time: 19:24
Engelska till Italienska
+ ...

my opinion

Nov 19, 2002

My provocative criticism towards the cost of Platinum membership and my support to Giovanni is strictly connected to the situation created in the English-Italian language pair and the relative rate market for which I think Proz is a partly responsible.

Mr malabad accused me of being a parasite or to reap benefits without paying. As a translator you know the weight of words, don’t you, so careful with their use! Is this an example of the spirit of friendship that animates all the members of this group?

Well, for your information I’m still a paying member and I’ve been paying my membership for 2 years because I recognized since the beginning that the site was a brilliant idea. I also keep giving my contribution to my language pair helping everyday other translators in difficulty more than I ask questions (only occasionally).

However, don’t you think that sometimes brilliant ideas can have counter effects? Do you take anything for granted? Don’t you think things can be improved and that accepting criticism is a way to grow?

I think that many agencies and clients come to ProZ to find translators possibly at low rates, and this is particularly true for the Eng-Ita segment, I don’t know for the others.

Consider this example:

I’m a translator with almost no experience, I translate part time just to increase my income and want to get some new customers. Competitions is high, so I decide to offer my services in a technical area (even though I’m not a specialist in any, who checks my profile?) through Proz with very attractive rates in an already sluggish market. So I bid for 0.02 source words. The translator gets the job and whenever in difficulty with the terms he/she starts posting questions through Kudoz receiving excellent feedback from more expert people.

The expert translator who has a real experience in that field and fairly enough asks higher rates, don’t get the job. He’s considered too expensive, of course. He’ll continue bidding, possibly lowering his/her rates and giving answers to the colleague who got the job and now needs help.

The agency or the client we’ll get the idea that translation is a low pay service (for translators of course) so why spend more? You may object, not all the agencies act this way. Quite true, but when it comes to money many are ready to change their attitude, and this is already happening. Remember I’m talking about eng-ita here.

You may say “What has Proz to do with this?”. I think that the site has many positive aspects, nobody doubts it, (Giovanni has paid and I’m a Platinum, so we recognized the value) but I think it should find ways to “protect” professional rates for those low paid language pair in order not to further diminish the role of our profession. I don’t know what kind of solutions are there. But the problem exists. Proz is considered a source to find translators but if I decide to pay 120 USD I expect to have something that protects my professionalism against a continuing decreasing of rates together with all the other interesting features. Otherwise I think I am free to decide not pay (since I’m allowed to do that) and enjoy the site like many others.

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ChiaraGC

Italien
Local time: 13:24
Engelska till Italienska

The "professionals" are the strength of the community

Nov 19, 2002

I have been translating for a long time, but I am a new Platinum myself. As a newcomer, I am enthusiastic of the site and the community that I found. However, I think I understand Giovanni\'s frustration: I think that part of it is the feeling that through KudoZ some of us are actually doing the translation for people who don\'t seem very qualified or proactive in finding simple solutions themselves. It is a sense of exploitation that can leave a bitter taste in one\'s mouth, and I don\'t know that it is an aspect of a community that can be erased. How can filters be implemented? How can they not interfere with free communication? If there is a solution, I am for it, but I think that in the end, as in all communities, it is the \"strongest\" individuals that set the standards and lead, giving the community its strength. ▲ Collapse

Telesforo Fernandez (X)
Local time: 22:54
Engelska till Spanska
+ ...

just support the site

Nov 19, 2002

Hey, I like this discussion. I have been a critic of the site site and of Henry, many many times.

Incidentally, paid memebers and non paid members get the same peanuts.The only difference is that paid members get the privilege of wearing those virtual medallions of virtual precious metals, obtained by paying hard real money.

Indeed, we have to support the site. One way would be to pay a support fee of say 10 $ / year and do away with the platinum memberships.

But it will not make business sense.

However, Henry should not forget that it not free dinner, either( for non paying members). We answer the questions of members who have blank profiles and even of paid members. And it costs us money, energy, time and talent. So it is not free dinner as Henry wants us to believe.

C\'est la vie. But who cares? But Proz is a nice thing that has happened to the community of translators.But Proz should survive, no matter who makes money.

▲ Collapse

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 13:24
WEBBPLATSENS GRUNDARE

Dont get me wrong: Giovanni does have a point. And we are working on it.

Nov 19, 2002

I think my reaction to Giovanni might have been misunderstood. The site is not perfect, and I can assure you that we take every criticism seriously, including Giovanni\'s.

Also, lest there be any doubt, Giovanni has contributed quite a bit here.

Thanks for your continued support!

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL

Storbritannien
Local time: 18:24
Engelska till Italienska

TOPIC STARTER

A couple of points...

Nov 19, 2002

Ok, maybe I was a bit direct with my initial comments, but this only shows my general disappointment towards the site. I joined enthusiastically - like many of us -18 months ago, having already quite a lot of experience in the translation field. Found a rather chaotic site, which has improved dramatically in these last 12 months, but it\'s not going in the direction I expected. I\'ve been busy talking to various moderators in the last few months but I\'ve seen no results. I have tried to contribute, but to no avail, and not because the moderators wouldn\'t listen. I feel there is a great need to raise standards, to curb the abuses and generally to make the site much more professional, in terms of people who join - i.e. deleting empty profiles or imposing mandatory fields when one joins - quality of jobs posted, identity of posters.

The Kudoz lead very often to very unsavoury squabbles and this is no good. The points are often awarded by unexperienced translators, often wrongly.

The membership platinum does not offer enough advantages. The only good one I can think of is the Blue Board. That\'s why many unscrupolous - non paying - translators have started sticking agrees to already closed questions and entering wrong terms in the glossary: to gain the necessary BrowniZ to check the board. This is wrong, as far as I\'m concerned, and an abuse.

Until all these problems are addressed properly, I won\'t renewing. The low rates are not Proz\'s fault, but we all know that Proz is associated with very low paid job offerings. This should be sorted as well, for the sake of our profession.

Giovanni

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