| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Is writing "hard- or software" (shortening the word "hardware") typical in English? Thread poster: Danielle Crouch
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:44
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Samuel Murray wrote:
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I would never mistakely write "orient" for "orientate"; but that's another story.
| | | | | orient/orientate | Jun 27, 2021 |
Tom in London wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
... I would never mistakely write "orient" for "orientate"; but that's another story.
What's the problem with orient?
"This is a common source of disagreement. Both “orient” and “orientate” are verbs meaning to align or position yourself; to work out where you are within a particular situation or environment. The origin of both words is the same : the Latin word oriens meaning “rising” and “east”, because of the rising sun.
Orient as a noun means the countries of the East, especially those of east Asia. Strictly speaking, then, to orient/orientate yourself means to align yourself to the east, although the verb now has the general sense of “to position yourself”.
In the UK, it is more common for people to say “orientate” whereas in the US, “orient” is more common. Writers in both countries sometimes bemoan the usage of the alternative word. In fact, both words are acceptable according to the dictionaries."
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 10:44
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
I would never mistakely write "orient" for "orientate"; but that's another story.
Thanks for the hijack. To follow up:
Burchfield's Fowler's (1996) writes: orient, orientate (verbs). In the perverse way in which such things often happen, these two verbs, one shorter than the other but drawn from the same base (French "orienter", to place facing the east) have fallen into competition with one another in the second half of the 20c. The shorter form emerged in the 18c. and the longer one, in the same sense (as in the French original), in the 19c. Both words then went in identical directions and developed the same extended senses: ... figuratively, "to ascertain one's 'bearings'". In particular, both words have become frequently used as participial adjectives (oriented, orientated).
And back to the topic:
What is notable about Mr Johnson's writing is that he doesn't seem to think that there is any difference in meaning between "kitchen-and-church-oriented" women and "kitchen- and church-oriented" women. This does rhyme with my understanding of how English treats compound nouns in general, though. In Afrikaans, the former sentence would be about one kind of woman (one who is kitchen-and-church-oriented) and the latter about two kinds of woman (one who is kitchen-oriented and one who is church-oriented).
[Edited at 2021-06-27 12:43 GMT]
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 12:44
English to Arabic
+ ...
Tom in London wrote:
I would never mistakely write "orient" for "orientate"; but that's another story.
"I would never mistakenly write "orient" to replace//in place/lieu/stead of "orientate"; but, that's an/one other story."
It's on! 😊
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Sadek_A
Local time: 12:44
English to Arabic
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Samuel Murray wrote:
What is notable about Mr Johnson's writing is that he doesn't seem to think that there is any difference in meaning between "kitchen-and-church-oriented" women and "kitchen- and church-oriented" women.
I'm afraid it's a totally incorrect example.
There is no common part in "kitchen-and-church-oriented" that would justify reducing it into "kitchen- and church-oriented".
It would've had to be "kitchen-oriented and church-oriented" to justify the reduction.
Also, "kitchen- and church-oriented woman" can't be the same as "kitchen- and church-oriented women".
So, I'm guessing he was exclusively talking about the singular form; hence, "kitchen-and-church-oriented woman" is definitely more correct than "kitchen- and church-oriented woman"; whereas the suspension would be reserved for the plural form, to possibly indicate combined different kinds.
[Edited at 2021-06-27 13:46 GMT]
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Sadek_A wrote:.
I see like 10 people in this thread, many of whom are claiming to be English natives & experts; however, not a single soul among them delivered a single reference that could be considered as a mind-changer for those using the other constructions.
I provided a link from 2012, where an English native testified to the correctness of the other constructions.
I also provided another link that explained hyphenation.
Still, most so far are ridiculously steering the topic from compound modifiers into Sadek. What's wrong with you people? Seriously! This behavior is NOT normal. You're actively turning almost every professional discussion into a personal one.
Maybe we are all saying the same thing because we are right and you are wrong?
English isn’t a rules-based language, as you know. It’s about usage. Hard- and software isn’t wrong but it is definitely weird. It’s just too German.
Disagreeing with someone isn’t getting personal.
| | | | Danielle Crouch
Germany
Local time: 10:44
Member (2019)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Typical vs. possible | Jun 28, 2021 |
Ice Scream wrote:
Hard- and software isn’t wrong but it is definitely weird. It’s just too German.
This is exactly what I was getting at with my question. I purposely asked if it is typical, not necessarily if it is "allowed" or understandable. Regardless of the fact that there isn't a unifying authority governing the rules and spellings of the English language, as a language professional I want to deliver work that is in line with the prevailing usage at the current time and in the field in question.
I think the flexibility and fluidity of English is one of the things that makes the language so exciting and dynamic. At the same time, I also strive to provide my clients with work that meets certain professional standards, and part of that is adhering to common usage. If I were writing a quick text message to a friend I would have no problem shortening words as long as they would be understood, but in a professional context the considerations are entirely different. I know some of the minute details that certain clients are particular about, and I always pay attention to those details to ensure that the client is happy with my work and comes back. Sadek makes a valid point that, in English in particular, the ultimate authority is the author (or whoever tells the author how to write), but in my case my intention is not to take that authority into my own hands, it is to defer to the prevailing opinion. In a case like "hardware and software" where the prevailing opinion seems to be fairly unanimous, I will go with prevailing opinion every time.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 12:44
English to Arabic
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Danielle Crouch wrote:
I think the flexibility and fluidity of English is one of the things that makes the language so exciting and dynamic.
Sadek makes a valid point that, in English in particular, the ultimate authority is the author (or whoever tells the author how to write)
Agreed.
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 10:44
Spanish to English
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If, for whatever reason, I'm ever desperate to abbreviate the terms, I'll simply use HW and SW, rather than spend time agonising over the acceptability of any possible hyphenation option.
| | | | | There are style guides in English, so you have to agree on one of them | Jun 28, 2021 |
It is quite impossible to lay down hard-and-fast rules for what is allowed or not allowed in English. Right from the start, there were northern and southern Englishes, still recognisable hundreds of years later in spoken dialects.
English has spread and down the centuries continued to pick up influences from other languages, which could not possibly become universal. The Brits had the language first, as they say, but would you believe, some of our most hated 'Americanisms' are examp... See more It is quite impossible to lay down hard-and-fast rules for what is allowed or not allowed in English. Right from the start, there were northern and southern Englishes, still recognisable hundreds of years later in spoken dialects.
English has spread and down the centuries continued to pick up influences from other languages, which could not possibly become universal. The Brits had the language first, as they say, but would you believe, some of our most hated 'Americanisms' are examples of how our friends across the pond have preserved older language more faithfully than Brits.
There are style guides, however. I do not know of any that specify whether hard- and software is permissible, but I remove it when proofreading, because it looks to me as if it is lifted directly from the source language, (Danish, possibly Norwegian). Just one of those little things that English has NOT picked up from the Vikings. 
It is always possible to agree with a client to use a specific style guide. Chicago, for example, has a long section on hyphenation, but I haven't time to read it all right now. (That is my idiolect for haven't got time, or don't have time ...)
In the Chicago Manual, an example such as over- and underfed cats shows hyphenation with adjectives, and it looks analogous.
However, hardware and software are nouns, so the same principle does not necessarily apply.
Logic is not always the final argument in English. The great trump is SWANS (Sounds Wrong to a Native Speaker) or Looks Wrong to a Native Speaker - unless you find a native speaker who says something else.
The only reliable solution is to agree with your client on what your target readers will understand and accept.
In the end, the important thing is to get the message across smoothly and clearly.
I would still write hardware and software out in full, but I have been known to adjust my English to target groups and the expression they expect to read or hear. Otherwise they may be distracted by the language, and miss the really important point!
[Edited at 2021-06-28 10:29 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | matt robinson
Spain
Local time: 10:44
Member (2010)
Spanish to English
| Hardware and software | Jun 28, 2021 |
Would that I were free to use said tongue as fit my will, but common cause (Google and its hits therein: 1,000,000,000 v. 5,500,000) shall force my hand in this affair.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 12:44
English to Arabic
+ ...
Ice Scream wrote:
Maybe we are all saying the same thing because we are right and you are wrong?
You're always right.
Ice Scream wrote:
English isn’t a rules-based language, as you know. It’s about usage. Hard- and software isn’t wrong but it is definitely weird. It’s just too German.
It is NOT rules-based, it IS usage-based?
Still, you're appointing your usage as the RULE and excluding all other usages as WRONG?
Seriously, now, try to read yourself there and see what you can figure out.
Ice Scream wrote:
Disagreeing with someone isn’t getting personal.
It kind of is, especially when the only sentence you write earlier doesn't add any technical info on the topic at hand, and only includes "You are" & "You know".
And, when your more recent version includes "[said construction] isn’t wrong; but, we are right and you are wrong".
How can the construction for which I'm vouching be right and I be wrong? Oh, Oh, I know the answer: Mystery of the Supreme Westerner?!
[Edited at 2021-06-28 17:14 GMT]
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Sara Massons
France
Local time: 10:44
Member (2016)
English to French
+ ...
| Just to add my little stone | Aug 24, 2021 |
Apart from the interesting discussion around compound words hyphenated or not and how to shorten them in general in English, I noticed something interesting in the page posted by Sadek_A here :
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/79159/can-i-say-this-in-english-hard-and-software
"However as an IT person I've never see... See more Apart from the interesting discussion around compound words hyphenated or not and how to shorten them in general in English, I noticed something interesting in the page posted by Sadek_A here :
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/79159/can-i-say-this-in-english-hard-and-software
"However as an IT person I've never seen "hard/software", probably because they really aren't opposites or two options on the same choice - they're completely separate things."
I think in all the examples shown in your answers to this post, both compound words are either opposite or part of the same list. I think this is why in this particular case, we should still you hardware and software as two separate words. I am not an English native speaker but I am an IT girl and I never read this phrase shortened this way.
I hope this helps. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:44
Serbian to English
+ ...
| Swans flying, or not... | Aug 24, 2021 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
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Logic is not always the final argument in English. The great trump is SWANS (Sounds Wrong to a Native Speaker) or Looks Wrong to a Native Speaker - unless you find a native speaker who says something else.
....
[Edited at 2021-06-28 10:29 GMT]
Logic is not always the final argument in English
Same as with other languages - the "logic" of human language is not always logical.
The great trump is SWANS (Sounds Wrong to a Native Speaker) or Looks Wrong to a Native Speaker
There is absolutely no way you could argue with that in principle. But, in practice results from applying this method are not always convincing - I remember at few occasions getting three different opinions from three different natives!
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