| Sidor om ämnet: < [1 2 3 4] > | When did "probably" become "likely? Trådens avsändare: Tom in London
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Kay Denney 
Frankrike
Local time: 07:02
Franska till Engelska
Tim Friese wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
Tim Friese wrote:
(snip) a lot of the ranting on this thread has been against Americans, so I'll recommend a true American great: Mean Girls. Early on they're talking about a character whose I name I heard when I watched it for the first time as Don. Imagine how confused I was when a woman walked on! (The actors pronounced Dawn > Don).
Thanks Tim - it's good to hear it from a qualified linguist, but I must add that I haven't seen any "ranting" (another abused word) and nothing I would think of as "anti-American".
Now: what's your take on "probably" vs. "likely"? [Edited at 2013-10-12 12:42 GMT]
Feel free to replace the word 'ranting' with 'complaining'; more to the point: yes, this thread covers well-tread ground in complaining about Americanisms.
Generally Americans with language peevs frame them as being against laziness, sloppiness, or some such ostensibly objective enemies. This is ultimately a sign that we Americans don't feel ourselves linguistically threatened by some other global hegemony.
On the other hand, Brits, Europeans, and people around the world often frame their language peevs as being against "Americanisms" - this comes up quite frequently in the press and online. See here for example:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3283
Or here:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3271
But we should be very careful about our judgments about who uses linguistic features that we don't like. I'm familiar with many cases where Americans have identified things they don't like in their language and then claimed they were part of young women's speech. (A few examples: 'like', 'totally', uptalk, the list goes on...) I believe this is indicative of a deep-seated desire to de-legitimize young women and has little do with the linguistic phenomena per se.
People who try to study such things with real-world evidence often get mixed or negative findings. This short study found men using the disliked use of 'like' more than women:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3226
TL;DR: language is messy, our perceptions are messier, and we might do well to assume that our perceptions are wrong until we have evidence to the contrary.
As far as 'likely' and 'probably', I've never paid them much thought - until today they were previously just a part of that sea of language that I use but do not notice.
Thank you Tom for this most thought-provoking thread and Tim for this post in particular!
| | | | Tim Friese
USA
Local time: 00:02
Medlem (2013)
Arabiska till Engelska
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Giles Watson wrote:
The OED quotes examples of the adverbial use of "likely" on its own in the sense of "probably" from Wycliff up to the present day. It goes on to point out that the usage is still alive and well in Scots English, which is likely where Americans picked it up from.
I don't have access to the OED, but yes this often turns out to be the case when these usage questions are investigated. Many turn out to be old and in the writing of the English greats...
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER
Tim Friese wrote:
Giles Watson wrote:
The OED quotes examples of the adverbial use of "likely" on its own in the sense of "probably" from Wycliff up to the present day. It goes on to point out that the usage is still alive and well in Scots English, which is likely where Americans picked it up from.
I don't have access to the OED, but yes this often turns out to be the case when these usage questions are investigated. Many turn out to be old and in the writing of the English greats...
Regardless of its origins, and speculate about them as we may, in modern usage it is wrong, and ugly, to substitute "likely" for "probably".
| | | | Oliver Walter
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Tyska till Engelska
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| Out-dated pedants! | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
Regardless of its origins, and speculate about them as we may, in modern usage it is wrong, and ugly, to substitute "likely" for "probably".
You and I agree on that, but perhaps that tells some people that we are out-dated and/or too pedantic.
I don't consider myself "old" - I've just been young for a few years more than some other people!
Oliver
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Tim Friese
USA
Local time: 00:02
Medlem (2013)
Arabiska till Engelska
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| I don't recall anyone speculating | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
Tim Friese wrote:
Giles Watson wrote:
The OED quotes examples of the adverbial use of "likely" on its own in the sense of "probably" from Wycliff up to the present day. It goes on to point out that the usage is still alive and well in Scots English, which is likely where Americans picked it up from.
I don't have access to the OED, but yes this often turns out to be the case when these usage questions are investigated. Many turn out to be old and in the writing of the English greats...
Regardless of its origins, and speculate about them as we may, in modern usage it is wrong, and ugly, to substitute "likely" for "probably".
Hi Tom, I would like to point out that Giles has not speculated on anything - he opened the book and noted >600 years of citations.
I believe the claim that something is 'wrong' needs a basis. We have a difficult situation in standard English where we have very fuzzy grounds on which to judge rightness and wrongness. Most people who have thought about this issue agree that standard English is what other people who claim to know standard English agree it is. I would certainly say that this is slippery, but it is the best we have.
We don't have a Royal Academy but if you all in Britain would like to start one you're one step closer by virtue of having royalty...
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER | Not a Royalist | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tim Friese wrote:
We don't have a Royal Academy but if you all in Britain would like to start one you're one step closer by virtue of having royalty...
There has been a Royal Academy since the eighteenth century.
And I'm Irish. I detest monarchy
[Edited at 2013-10-12 22:09 GMT]
| | | | Tim Friese
USA
Local time: 00:02
Medlem (2013)
Arabiska till Engelska
+ ...
| I committed the greatest sin! | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
Tim Friese wrote:
We don't have a Royal Academy but if you all in Britain would like to start one you're one step closer by virtue of having royalty...
There has been a Royal Academy since the eighteenth century.
And I'm Irish. I detest monarchy
[Edited at 2013-10-12 21:49 GMT]
I called an Irish person a Brit. Sorry!
You're right that there's a Royal Academy, but it seems they don't concern themselves with English, right? Unless I'm missing something?
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER
Tim Friese wrote:
--- there's a Royal Academy, but it seems they don't concern themselves with English, right? Unless I'm missing something?
Correct. It's the Royal Academy of Arts. So it isn't **likely** that it would concern itself with language. In fact it's **probably** unlikely.
Quote from Wikipedia:
"As with English around the world, the English language as used in the United Kingdom is governed by convention rather than formal code: there is no body equivalent to the Académie française or the Real Academia Española".
So it's **likely ** that the Brits are as pragmatic in matters of language as they are in matters of law.
That's **probably** a good thing.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 22:17 GMT]
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Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 07:02
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
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| What you choose personally and language tendency | Oct 12, 2013 |
If "likely" is becoming more widespread (for a variety of reasons), it's happening naturally. You can choose not to become a part of it, of course, but need to bear in mind natural tendencies, especially if you work with a language professionally.
Just because you choose not to use it, it doesn't mean it will stop the spreading/the tendency.
Of course tendencies change and language is always dynamic.
| | | | | This is from a legal document or letter | Oct 13, 2013 |
Rachel Fell wrote:
I see it quite often in US texts I work on, and without a modifier - e.g. "...your company will likely suffer a loss...". In some contexts it can be replaced by "probably". Never seen "prolly" anywhere before, as far as I can recall.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:04 GMT]
There is nothing wrong with it. 'Your company will likely suffer losses" is a transformation of a sentence: "It is likely that your company will suffer losses' -- a perfectly grammatical sentence. (Both are, in fact)
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
'Your company will likely suffer losses"
That's horrible. And to my ears, meaningless.
[Edited at 2013-10-13 11:09 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER
Lingua 5B wrote:
If "likely" is becoming more widespread (for a variety of reasons), it's happening naturally. You can choose not to become a part of it, of course, but need to bear in mind natural tendencies, especially if you work with a language professionally.
Just because you choose not to use it, it doesn't mean it will stop the spreading/the tendency.
Of course tendencies change and language is always dynamic.
But what's the reason for replacing "probably" with "likely"? If there were a good reason I might accept this change.
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Ty Kendall
Storbritannien
Local time: 06:02
Hebreiska till Engelska
| The "problem" is....... | Oct 13, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Rachel Fell wrote:
I see it quite often in US texts I work on, and without a modifier - e.g. "...your company will likely suffer a loss...". In some contexts it can be replaced by "probably". Never seen "prolly" anywhere before, as far as I can recall.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:04 GMT]
There is nothing wrong with it. 'Your company will likely suffer losses" is a transformation of a sentence: "It is likely that your company will suffer losses' -- a perfectly grammatical sentence. (Both are, in fact)
In the sentence: "your company will likely suffer losses"
"likely" is functioning as an (unmodified unaccompanied) ADVERB, which hard-core prescriptivists would decry as "wrong".
(Test: "likely" cannot be substituted with "probable" - its supposed synonym, you'd have to use "probably" - another adverb).
In the sentence: "it is likely that your company will suffer losses"
"likely" is functioning as an ADJECTIVE, which won't/wouldn't raise any prescriptivist eyebrows.
(Test: "likely" can be substituted with "probable")
a perfectly grammatical sentence
Well, it's a perfectly natural sentence that many native speakers will produce and in that sense (a descriptive sense) it is grammatical. Prescriptively though (if you are going to adhere to prescriptive grammar rules) then it's not so clear cut.
[Edited at 2013-10-13 11:31 GMT]
| | | | | It's poor writing even by Murcan standards | Oct 13, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
'Your company will likely suffer losses"
That's horrible. And to my ears, meaningless. [Edited at 2013-10-13 11:09 GMT]
This is poor writing by any standards. And painful to Murcan ears as well.
| | | | | Well, this is very common | Oct 13, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
'Your company will likely suffer losses"
That's horrible. And to my ears, meaningless. [Edited at 2013-10-13 11:09 GMT]
in US business or legal language. 'Probably' is not that often used in legal language, in my experience.
[Edited at 2013-10-13 12:39 GMT]
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