| Sidor om ämnet: < [1 2 3 4] > | When did "probably" become "likely? Trådens avsändare: Tom in London
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Rachel Fell 
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Franska till Engelska
+ ...
I see it quite often in US texts I work on, and without a modifier - e.g. "...your company will likely suffer a loss...". In some contexts it can be replaced by "probably". Never seen "prolly" anywhere before, as far as I can recall.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:04 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER | Where did I *not* hear it? | Oct 12, 2013 |
Lilian - I hear it all the time, every day (or "everyday" as some illiterates would have it). People saying things like "Congress will likely have to compromise with the President" etc.
Maybe all this is happening because the language used to be "controlled" by an elite of fairly well-educated and literate individuals, but now thanks to the Internet, texting, etc., they have lost control and the language is being changed not by the literate but by the illiterate. Maybe. Michel Fouca... See more Lilian - I hear it all the time, every day (or "everyday" as some illiterates would have it). People saying things like "Congress will likely have to compromise with the President" etc.
Maybe all this is happening because the language used to be "controlled" by an elite of fairly well-educated and literate individuals, but now thanks to the Internet, texting, etc., they have lost control and the language is being changed not by the literate but by the illiterate. Maybe. Michel Foucault, please come back from the grave and theorise about this !
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER | Like, awesome | Oct 12, 2013 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
"awesome" (pronounced "ah-some").
???
We pronounce awesome "awe-some". Nobody says "ah-some", which would probably sound unnaturally nasal.
Perhaps you were listening to some bad movie or TV imitation of a New England accent.
This is the correct British English pronunciation of "awesome": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhXYrQltyo0
In the BE world, the American pronunciation sounds like "ah-some".
Although I think the very way in which the word "awesome" is used to describe anything and everything, rather than things that are genuinely awesome, is **probably** an import from teenage America.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:15 GMT]
| | | | Tim Friese
USA
Local time: 06:17
Medlem (2013)
Arabiska till Engelska
+ ...
| Ah-some is quite common | Oct 12, 2013 |
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
"awesome" (pronounced "ah-some").
???
We pronounce awesome "awe-some". Nobody says "ah-some", which would probably sound unnaturally nasal.
Perhaps you were listening to some bad movie or TV imitation of a New England accent.
Yes this happens and it is an example of the cot-caught merger. Metalinguistic awareness at this level is extremely hard - don't feel bad that you haven't noticed it, and likewise we should all try not to make too firm of judgments of what does or does not happen in language at the phonetic level (because we are often wrong!). It was three years AFTER I finished my linguistics degree that I started hearing this one reliably; before that I was simply deaf to it.
This is related to a more general phenomenon, in progress for several decades now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift
As a sidenote, a lot of the ranting on this thread has been against Americans, so I'll recommend a true American great: Mean Girls. Early on they're talking about a character whose I name I heard when I watched it for the first time as Don. Imagine how confused I was when a woman walked on! (The actors pronounced Dawn > Don).
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Tom in London
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Medlem (2008)
Italienska till Engelska
TOPIC STARTER
Tim Friese wrote:
(snip) a lot of the ranting on this thread has been against Americans, so I'll recommend a true American great: Mean Girls. Early on they're talking about a character whose I name I heard when I watched it for the first time as Don. Imagine how confused I was when a woman walked on! (The actors pronounced Dawn > Don).
Thanks Tim - it's good to hear it from a qualified linguist, but I must add that I haven't seen any "ranting" (another abused word) and nothing I would think of as "anti-American".
Now: what's your take on "probably" vs. "likely"?
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:42 GMT]
| | | | | I agree with you -- with some of your points : American English might be a different language | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
Rudolf Vedo CT wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
"awesome" (pronounced "ah-some").
???
We pronounce awesome "awe-some". Nobody says "ah-some", which would probably sound unnaturally nasal.
Perhaps you were listening to some bad movie or TV imitation of a New England accent.
This is the correct British English pronunciation of "awesome": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhXYrQltyo0
In the BE world, the American pronunciation sounds like "ah-some".
Although I think the very way in which the word "awesome" is used to describe anything and everything, rather than things that are genuinely awesome, is **probably** an import from teenage America. [Edited at 2013-10-12 12:15 GMT]
where "awesome" is pronounced differently than in BE, and it may actually mean something else. Words do not have a permanent meaning -- their meaning changes over time.
Also, according to some new tendencies, more and more different pronunciations arise everyday (perphaps a slight exaggeration). I don't really think there is anything like a standard American pronunciation anymore. Most likely there never was one, in fact.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 12:59 GMT]
| | | | Tim Friese
USA
Local time: 06:17
Medlem (2013)
Arabiska till Engelska
+ ...
| The American-British issue is a widespread discourse | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:
Tim Friese wrote:
(snip) a lot of the ranting on this thread has been against Americans, so I'll recommend a true American great: Mean Girls. Early on they're talking about a character whose I name I heard when I watched it for the first time as Don. Imagine how confused I was when a woman walked on! (The actors pronounced Dawn > Don).
Thanks Tim - it's good to hear it from a qualified linguist, but I must add that I haven't seen any "ranting" (another abused word) and nothing I would think of as "anti-American".
Now: what's your take on "probably" vs. "likely"? [Edited at 2013-10-12 12:42 GMT]
Feel free to replace the word 'ranting' with 'complaining'; more to the point: yes, this thread covers well-tread ground in complaining about Americanisms.
Generally Americans with language peevs frame them as being against laziness, sloppiness, or some such ostensibly objective enemies. This is ultimately a sign that we Americans don't feel ourselves linguistically threatened by some other global hegemony.
On the other hand, Brits, Europeans, and people around the world often frame their language peevs as being against "Americanisms" - this comes up quite frequently in the press and online. See here for example:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3283
Or here:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3271
But we should be very careful about our judgments about who uses linguistic features that we don't like. I'm familiar with many cases where Americans have identified things they don't like in their language and then claimed they were part of young women's speech. (A few examples: 'like', 'totally', uptalk, the list goes on...) I believe this is indicative of a deep-seated desire to de-legitimize young women and has little do with the linguistic phenomena per se.
People who try to study such things with real-world evidence often get mixed or negative findings. This short study found men using the disliked use of 'like' more than women:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3226
TL;DR: language is messy, our perceptions are messier, and we might do well to assume that our perceptions are wrong until we have evidence to the contrary.
As far as 'likely' and 'probably', I've never paid them much thought - until today they were previously just a part of that sea of language that I use but do not notice.
| | | | James McVay
USA
Local time: 07:17
Ryska till Engelska
+ ...
| Another Murican's opinion | Oct 12, 2013 |
As for me, I'm not likely to use "likely" in place of "probably," but both "likely" and "probably" are legitimate words and have their uses. For example, you can't use "probably" in constructions like "I'm not * to," "he's not * to" or "it's not * to" -- or even without the "not." You can say, "It's likely to rain today," but not "It's probably to rain today." Sometimes "probable" can replace "likely" in that construction. Examples: " It's probable that the murderer will hang;" but not: "I'm pro... See more As for me, I'm not likely to use "likely" in place of "probably," but both "likely" and "probably" are legitimate words and have their uses. For example, you can't use "probably" in constructions like "I'm not * to," "he's not * to" or "it's not * to" -- or even without the "not." You can say, "It's likely to rain today," but not "It's probably to rain today." Sometimes "probable" can replace "likely" in that construction. Examples: " It's probable that the murderer will hang;" but not: "I'm probable to hang." Not that you would ever want to be in a position to say it any way.
To be perfectly clear, however, the two words mean about the same thing to me when used as adverbs. If I were to say it's "likely" something will happen, it would mean that I think the probability of it happening is higher than if I say it will "probably" happen. But maybe that's just me.
One interesting distinction between them is that "likely" can be used as an adjective, whereas "probably" cannot. Example: "He is a likely candidate." You can't say, "He is a probably candidate."
One more point. Language inevitably changes, even British English — and Brits and Americans influence each other. (Although, I haven't noticed many Americans saying "brilliant" or "bloody.") Some people always say that any change is bad. A linguist simply observes change and reserves judgment.
[Edited at 2013-10-12 19:03 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-13 00:27 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-10-13 00:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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cranium
Franska till Engelska
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In my opinion, there are more regional differences in vowel pronunication within the UK than in all NA. When travelling in the UK, I often need a few hours for my ear to adjust (despite growing up on BBC rebroadcastings).
Anyone seen the French and Saunders skit parodying "Birds of a Feather": "It's soward to cape my wedding vaaaaaaahs".
[Edited at 2013-10-12 14:30 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
Kina
Local time: 19:17
Kinesiska till Engelska
| I do it; didn't think it was new or American | Oct 12, 2013 |
I'm definitely guilty of this. I'd say I use it as part of my informal-but-businesslike register. I never thought of it as either new (and checking now, it does appear in this sense in Shakespeare, though only once) or American. I'm a happy adopter of Americanisms when they seem useful to me, but I don't think I picked this usage up off the TV.
Very much appreciate Tom F's response.
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Kanada
Local time: 05:17
Nederländska till Engelska
+ ...
| likely vs. most likely | Oct 12, 2013 |
I suspect that 'likely' is simply a paired-down 'most likely', i.e., more certain than 'probably'.
| | | | Oliver Walter
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Tyska till Engelska
+ ...
| Tom: yes, and I don't like it | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tom in London wrote:... the language used to be "controlled" by an elite of fairly well-educated and literate individuals, but now thanks to the Internet, texting, etc., they have lost control and the language is being changed not by the literate but by the illiterate. Yes, I think that is so. I have the impression that the American culture makes them (more than the British) unable to accept that a given word could have different spellings depending on its use. In my mind at present are "practice" and "practise". At school (English grammar school in the 50s and 60s) I remember we were taught "ce [pronounced 'see ee'] the noun, se [pronounced 'ess ee'] the verb". So, when I practise the violin, I am doing my practice. About 20 or 30 years ago, it was always "practise" in USA; now it's always "practice". "Defense" is different, probably because it's never a verb.
On "probably" and "likely", Ty is right: My likely [adjective] activities this afternoon include taking the train to London this afternoon, and there will probably [adverb] be many tourists there.
Oliver
[Edited at 2013-10-12 15:16 GMT]
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| Broadening American-British to Identity Politics | Oct 12, 2013 |
Tim Friese wrote:
Generally Americans with language peevs frame them as being against laziness, sloppiness, or some such ostensibly objective enemies. This is ultimately a sign that we Americans don't feel ourselves linguistically threatened by some other global hegemony.
On the other hand, Brits, Europeans, and people around the world often frame their language peevs as being against "Americanisms" - this comes up quite frequently in the press and online. See here for example:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3283
Or here:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3271
But we should be very careful about our judgments about who uses linguistic features that we don't like. I'm familiar with many cases where Americans have identified things they don't like in their language and then claimed they were part of young women's speech. (A few examples: 'like', 'totally', uptalk, the list goes on...) I believe this is indicative of a deep-seated desire to de-legitimize young women and has little do with the linguistic phenomena per se.
People who try to study such things with real-world evidence often get mixed or negative findings. This short study found men using the disliked use of 'like' more than women:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3226
TL;DR: language is messy, our perceptions are messier, and we might do well to assume that our perceptions are wrong until we have evidence to the contrary.
I think you make a lot of good points, Tim, but I'd like to add that I do think Americans single out groups that they'd like to ascribe these adjectives to (lazy, sloppy, just plain wrong, etc). Whether or not there is a real difference or just a difference in perception of our language - as you pointed out, our perceptions are not always correct - we (humans) perceive differences in language as a way of drawing the borderlines around what our group is. It could be talking about the language of another country, city, race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, you name it - it all comes down to identity politics.
Anyway, sorry for the derailment here, carry on...
| | | | Giles Watson
Italien
Local time: 13:17
Italienska till Engelska
In memoriam | When? Before 1380 | Oct 12, 2013 |
The OED quotes examples of the adverbial use of "likely" on its own in the sense of "probably" from Wycliff up to the present day. It goes on to point out that the usage is still alive and well in Scots English, which is likely where Americans picked it up from.
| | | | Rachel Fell
Storbritannien
Local time: 12:17
Franska till Engelska
+ ...
Likely as an adverb can be fine, but I encounter it in US English in ways that that it wouldn't be used in standard UK English - "Which of the following types of ... would likely influence your decision?"; "While each group will likely have different methods...".
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