| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | Do you think Proz should add Trados certification as translators search criteria? Thread poster: Pablo Bouvier
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| ProZ = the new Trados workplace? | Aug 15, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote: Hi, from the person you were actually responding to ... Victor Dewsbery wrote:
In other words, you pay above the odds to earn less ....
Another black and white approach to Trados again. You see that's where you are wrong Victor, bottom line is I earn more at the end of the day. I make the tool work for me.
Hi Debs,
Thanks for putting me right on who said what (and relieving Chris of some of the things I thought he had written).
My comment on the downside of the "Trados rate" system described the situation "for many" translators. Not for all.
I know that translators who know their own worth can improve their "bottom line" with Trados (or any other CAT tool). I am glad to hear your success story, and I hope it encourages others to be more successful in resisting the knock-down prices (and discount scales) that are sometimes peddled around the marketplace.
And I agree that there are cases in which discounts for repetitions are justified (I sometimes give them myself, but on a pragmatic basis and by individual agreement, never based on a global rate).
And as for being seemingly horrified by the press release, come off it. If you haven't realised by now that Henry is interested in his bottom line - and why shouldn't he be, this site was his idea - and have naively swallowed that this is a place that genuinely champions translator's rights, it's really about time to wake up and smell that coffee. 
I prefer to make my own coffee. Which includes a CAT tool of my own choice and providing highly specialised work for good prices in a couple of subject areas in which the demand for good work seems to be outstripping the supply (so I generally get a couple of "applications" from hopeful agencies every week).
If your cynical (I hope) remarks on Henry's business policies are true (i.e. if ProZ is becoming a marketing subsidiary of SDL Trados, or anyone else flashing big bucks), then this places a big question mark over the site's identity - and the decision of whether to pay for another year of membership when the present year ends. In other words, Henry is free to milk whatever cash cow he wishes, and I am free to decide whether the product he offers meets any need of mine.
I wonder if Henry or Mike have anything to add to this thread.
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak 
Poland
Local time: 13:59
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | It's about the requirements... | Aug 15, 2007 |
Ralf Lemster wrote:
Whether or not certification for a particular tool is good for you is your decision. But certainly nothing to be afraid of.
When it becomes a job requirement introduced into the bidding system through backroom dealing with the site, it is no longer my decision, is it? And certainly something to be afraid of!
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Had there been forums like this when the computer was first introduced, they would have been plastered with the same scaremongering.
So you're comparing using a computer with the Trados certification? There is one significant difference: the former benefits the translator a lot, the latter very little.
I always welcome and embrace new tools and developments in translating, as long as they are good for me. Skewering the ProZ job system in such a way that some day I will be forced to pay considerable amount of money each year for the privilege of certifying that I know a name for a certain menu in a certain software is not, in my opinion, positive development in translation.
I also am not so sure, whether it is inevitable: it is not, if here and now those who oppose the idea take a stand and voice their concerns.
There is really little substance in the ProZ certificate: I've taken the preliminary test and scored quite well, I think (36 points out of 40), but was shocked that it did not really try to tackle the real-life, everyday problems people have with Trados (which fill the SDL Trados support forum here). Not at all, it was all about "where is that option" or "what is the name of that button". That is why I am convinced that it is just another one of those "medals for money" scheme. Still, if anyone feels better when they got the certificate, good for them.
However, if this SDL money-making scheme makes me unable to bid on some of the jobs, that is a different matter altogether. To this I take a strong exception.
| | | | | That is the issue here | Aug 15, 2007 |
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback.
Textklick wrote:
From a purely business of view, I kind of agree with Lawyer-Linguist: "So SDL Trados is ahead of the others offering certification and agressively marketing it. Good for them."
...
Hopefully as and when other vendors go for this concept, it will also be an option that is accepted and displayed by Proz (and maybe a cheaper certification)?
This is exactly it, Textklick. As far as I knew (before reading this thread), no other certification program existed for a CAT tool. Of course we will consider working with vendors to provide search criteria for additional certification programs as they become available, provided that sufficient interest exists among our members and users.
Generally speaking, my position is that having training and certifications available for those who wish to make use of them is a good thing. I would point out that we have--since our inception--provided search criteria in relation to certifications offered by professional associations. Also, in our new training program, you will notice that there are sessions scheduled for various tools. Those courses reflect the interests expressed by our members in giving and receiving training of various sorts.
| | | | | Your information is yours of course, Sonja | Aug 15, 2007 |
Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:
I have no problem with the certificate, even if it is the only one Proz.com mentions on its page. But I have a problem that a big translation service provider and software vendor is now having all my details in their database.
Of course this is not the case. That you control who gets your information is outlined in our privacy policy. ("Apart from the desired username, which appears on each profile page and elsewhere throughout the site, the information collected by ProZ.com is not shared with anyone without permission.")
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Jabberwock wrote:
So you're comparing using a computer with the Trados certification? There is one significant difference: the former benefits the translator a lot, the latter very little.
... the translator is business-savvy and knows how to make things work in his/her favour. Sadly I find too little evidence of that in these forums.
And no, it's not a direct comparison, it's a time-related one. Of course computers are a benefit these days, but they certainly weren't universally viewed that way when they first came out.
[Edited at 2007-08-15 21:21]
| | | | | We're on the same wavelength after all ... | Aug 15, 2007 |
Victor Dewsbery wrote: Lawyer-Linguist wrote: Hi, from the person you were actually responding to ... Victor Dewsbery wrote:
In other words, you pay above the odds to earn less ....
Another black and white approach to Trados again. You see that's where you are wrong Victor, bottom line is I earn more at the end of the day. I make the tool work for me. Hi Debs, Thanks for putting me right on who said what (and relieving Chris of some of the things I thought he had written). My comment on the downside of the "Trados rate" system described the situation "for many" translators. Not for all. I know that translators who know their own worth can improve their "bottom line" with Trados (or any other CAT tool). I am glad to hear your success story, and I hope it encourages others to be more successful in resisting the knock-down prices (and discount scales) that are sometimes peddled around the marketplace. And I agree that there are cases in which discounts for repetitions are justified (I sometimes give them myself, but on a pragmatic basis and by individual agreement, never based on a global rate). And as for being seemingly horrified by the press release, come off it. If you haven't realised by now that Henry is interested in his bottom line - and why shouldn't he be, this site was his idea - and have naively swallowed that this is a place that genuinely champions translator's rights, it's really about time to wake up and smell that coffee. I prefer to make my own coffee. Which includes a CAT tool of my own choice and providing highly specialised work for good prices in a couple of subject areas in which the demand for good work seems to be outstripping the supply (so I generally get a couple of "applications" from hopeful agencies every week). If your cynical (I hope) remarks on Henry's business policies are true (i.e. if ProZ is becoming a marketing subsidiary of SDL Trados, or anyone else flashing big bucks), then this places a big question mark over the site's identity - and the decision of whether to pay for another year of membership when the present year ends. In other words, Henry is free to milk whatever cash cow he wishes, and I am free to decide whether the product he offers meets any need of mine. I wonder if Henry or Mike have anything to add to this thread.
Glad to hear that you:
a) do consider discounts on a case-by-case basis (ditto here)
b) provide highly specialised work at good prices (ditto here)
c) have more work offers than you can accept (ditto here)
You hit the nail on the head, translators - the good ones, who are actually in short supply - need to realise their own worth, step up to the plate and hit the ball, not duck everytime they're thrown what they think is a curveball and play the victim.
But no, my remarks about Henry's (or the site's) policies weren't cynical. I've always viewed him as shrewd and out to make profit, but that's what entrepreneurs do. I don't think we should be overly surprised that's all. And I honestly think if you weigh the pros against the cons, the annual membership fee is still worthwhile.
I just see these type of developments as all part of a long-term strategy to float ProZ one day in the not-too-distant future, or at least gearing up towards a massive buy-out. (The April fool's joke of this year wasn't that far-fetched.)
That is where all this is heading in my view, and as I said in my first posting it is business interests that will dictate the way forward.
PS: Are you doing the MA in Legal Translation at City this coming year? I remember reading somewhere you were planning to. I'd love to but my language pairs aren't offered, although I'm trying to get up to speed with Spanish to give it a bash. If you do, would you mind posting a review now and again?
[Edited at 2007-08-15 20:36]
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Ralf Lemster wrote:
.... (and on topic) ....
Nice one
Keep well
Debs
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 06:59
English to Russian
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| Thanks for enlightening me on this deal | Aug 15, 2007 |
Which means that August membership dues were my last ones. Proz has never been my feeding pasture anyway. I second all the negative comments.
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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 13:59
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
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SITE LOCALIZER | "There is really little substance in the ProZ certificate" | Aug 16, 2007 |
Jabberwock wrote:
...was shocked that it did not really try to tackle the real-life, everyday problems people have with Trados (which fill the SDL Trados support forum here). Not at all, it was all about "where is that option" or "what is the name of that button". That is why I am convinced that it is just another one of those "medals for money" scheme...
++
I was one of the early adopters and scored somewhere in the lower thirties (i.e. did not pass - g), and was more or less mixed up by all the unknown terms and expressions I have survived without until that moment. Please note that I did study, but the questions were ... rather strange. It was all like "what is the 3rd digit in the second line of the label on the CPR box: a) 0-4, b) 5-9 c) none of above", when studying for a paramedic. I do not think this is essential information for a paramedic in a live saving (or any) situation.
Given my record in the TRADOS corner here, this should say something.
| | | | Heidi C
Local time: 07:59
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Trados Certification biasing customer preference? | Aug 16, 2007 |
Marc P wrote:
Customers are entitled to select suppliers on whatever basis they wish. It is, however, disingenuous to suggest that this alone warrants "Trados Certification" being given particular status as a criterion for supplier selection.
Criteria which are not added in response to an observed pattern of customer preference may simply become self-perpetuating. This phenomenon has already been observed with other criteria on ProZ for selection of a translator.
In other words, by giving particular weight to this selection criterion, ProZ is influencing customer preferences. Whether that is legitimate or not is another matter. ...
Marc
Well, there is now a job listing which is requesting Spanish Teachers.
One of the requirements for posting is to use TRADOS (in additon to a background in education).
Just wondering...
[Edited at 2007-08-16 03:04]
[Edited at 2007-08-16 05:04]
| | | | Brandis (X)
Local time: 13:59
English to German
+ ...
| I am sure it is probably going to be the next marthon run | Aug 16, 2007 |
Hi!
We know the development of all microosoft products
there are infact 11 products for PCs and a few in networking. For all or most of them a certaification program is also being offered. That was the run in the 90s later came certification for MS-Office packages, then again run.
In the mean time the PC technology has gone up offering newer products and certification. We now have Trados coming up with a new version almost every year, Microsoft once two years. Laptop technolo... See more Hi!
We know the development of all microosoft products
there are infact 11 products for PCs and a few in networking. For all or most of them a certaification program is also being offered. That was the run in the 90s later came certification for MS-Office packages, then again run.
In the mean time the PC technology has gone up offering newer products and certification. We now have Trados coming up with a new version almost every year, Microsoft once two years. Laptop technology changes every 3 months and the CAT tools also accordingly. With this vent to CAt tool certification there will certainly be Trados 2008 + certification 209 + certification and a range of other CAT tool vendors following that march. In a way i understand what Victor was saying, he is my former generation. I grew up as an Engineer at siemens and with much field experience in a range of fields, I see " Credentials required " in engineering specific areas. I also did an M.B.A in Michigan and believe, that it is in the nature of a university certification to facilitate their students with enough knowledge so that they can help themselves in a real life situation. And this certification is global. I honest ask of you, what sense is there in attaining a CAT tool certification " supposed to be a productivity enhancement help" and with ever changing technologies and later and newer versions and as pe the client´s demands a typical translator spends much time trying to figure out the way out to his / el dorado. Is that a way to operate, I would certainly not suggest that approach. An institutional certificate is strictly a an institutional certificate nothing to compare with a 5-6 years university education and hence attained certification and over many number of years of working knowledge in the field of translation. It is as such very difficult to use multiple CAT tools, while trying to maintain one´s quality finish (Here the outsourcers come putting guns at us " one mistake we cut 50% of the offered price") A situation like this is hard to justify. I can keep on writing without end. So I stop here. I see this certification program is an option and people may or not go for it. But I doubt whether this certification would be followed by future certifications as well and whether that really pays off as well. Can we raise the community average prices may be by another €0.10 per word ! Best regards, Brandis
[Edited at 2007-08-16 07:21] ▲ Collapse
| | | | sylver
Local time: 19:59
English to French
First, I had a look at the job form, and I couldn't find the darn option. Assuming that the option is there and that I simply overlooked it, I would not be opposed to it on the grounds that clients are free to ask for what they want, and while it is an obvious marketing move from Trados, it is also a smart move and nothing is preventing competitors to do the same.
In my observation, Trados' long established marketing strategy is directed to the customers rather than to the translato... See more First, I had a look at the job form, and I couldn't find the darn option. Assuming that the option is there and that I simply overlooked it, I would not be opposed to it on the grounds that clients are free to ask for what they want, and while it is an obvious marketing move from Trados, it is also a smart move and nothing is preventing competitors to do the same.
In my observation, Trados' long established marketing strategy is directed to the customers rather than to the translators.
They do not try to sell their tools by making them convenient/efficient/desirable to the end users (translators).
They sell the concept of "TM tool" and it's cost-saving attributes to our clients and make sure that *our clients* require/seek Trados owners (and now Trados-certified owners), which in turns becomes the main selling point to us translators: Getting what the clients ask, rather than getting what we like to work with.
If Microsoft runs Trados servers and require their translators to use Trados (pretty obvious), you can be sure translators working with Microsoft will use Trados. And if asked to get certified, they will.
It's been a while now that Trados is on the bottom rung of translator's satisfaction surveys, but it's remains on top of the list in the clients' minds, who are sold on "productivity gains" (which is true compared to working without a CAT, but not compared to working other CATs), and massive savings for repetitive materials (no edge on other tools, but the end customers are seldom aware of the existence of other CATs).
Adding an option for a "Trados certification" is yet another move in that direction.
On the other end, it's true that unfortunately too many translators don't bother to learn how their tools work, so allowing clients to specify whether they require a Trados certification kind of makes sense.
Personally, I would welcome a general CAT certification program where a translator would be required to handle and produce documents with the CAT of his choice. Things like demonstrating his ability to use and export TMX TMs, prepare and translate HTML, XML,... correctly, handle Ms Word documents properly (Not a week ago, I had to fix a whole pile of documents at the last minute because a translator destroyed all fields in a Word document!!!)...
So as an occasional outsourcer, I would welcome a quick way to evaluate the competence of the translator with his tools.
On a related note, I think the Job form is getting a bit crowded and it would probably be a good thing to gather all those extra options in hidden layers, with "hide/show" links of some kind, like this:
+ Software requirements... (optional)
+ Certifications requirements... (optional)
+ Budget requirements... (optional)
+ ... ▲ Collapse
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sylver
Local time: 19:59
English to French
Brandis wrote:
...
Can we rise the community average prices may be by another €0.10 per word ! Best regards, Brandis
I would be happy if the average prices raised *to* €0.10 per word.
| | | | | Completely off topic for this thread, but ... | Aug 16, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
PS: Are you doing the MA in Legal Translation at City this coming year? I remember reading somewhere you were planning to. I'd love to but my language pairs aren't offered, although I'm trying to get up to speed with Spanish to give it a bash. If you do, would you mind posting a review now and again?
I'm still planning to do it, but the university has postponed the launch of the course to September 2008. The university website does not yet announce the postponement, but for anyone interested, the content details are at
http://www.city.ac.uk/languages/courses/legal_translation.html
| | | | Sonja Tomaskovic (X)
Germany
Local time: 13:59
English to German
+ ...
Of course this is not the case. That you control who gets your information is outlined in our privacy policy. ("Apart from the desired username, which appears on each profile page and elsewhere throughout the site, the information collected by ProZ.com is not shared with anyone without permission.")
Hello Henry,
Thanks for reassuring me. However, my concern is not that no third party will get hold of my information.
Sonja
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