| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | New system from a translation buyer's perspective Thread poster: a2ztranslate
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a2ztranslate 
New Zealand
Local time: 23:52
English to Japanese
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TOPIC STARTER | Oh well, knew I would get flamed! | Apr 4, 2010 |
Kind of knew I was on a hiding to nothing when I made the post, so to be expected. It would seem that many of the respondents here have a very low opinion of agencies.
The reason that I mentioned the "even when the client goes bust" thing was I just had a discussion with a translator the other day about how he could resolve a situation where he worked for an agency, the agency claimed the client had gone bust and not paid, so the agency wasn't going to pay the translator.
... See more Kind of knew I was on a hiding to nothing when I made the post, so to be expected. It would seem that many of the respondents here have a very low opinion of agencies.
The reason that I mentioned the "even when the client goes bust" thing was I just had a discussion with a translator the other day about how he could resolve a situation where he worked for an agency, the agency claimed the client had gone bust and not paid, so the agency wasn't going to pay the translator.
No matter what u do to ascertain a client's credit-worthiness, you will always get caught out in the end because it rarely makes sense to chase someone through the courts for amounts less than what the legal fees will be, especially when working across jurisdictions. From reading the various boards on ProZ and other sites, it seems to me that this is one of the biggest issue faced by translators; non-payment (or very very late payment, which can be just as bad, especially on bigger projects) by translation buyers. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | New system from a translation buyer's perspective | Apr 4, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
I think everyone here has made valid and relevant comments, and I would like to respond.
I did not intend to say that the value of an experienced translator (their training, experience, software, hardware etc.) approximates anything near that of a new translator. But we have been in really tough economic times in the last 18 months or so, and no more so than in the translation industry. As a service industry, most corporations look at services first to cut costs. That is just plain business reality. So we cop it first and hardest.
So perhaps I should rephrase item 2. My point is, that when times are tough, an experienced translator, because they can do more words per hour than a new translator, can actually work at a lower per word rate and still make a "livable wage" (as per the original petition, whatever that means). Just as a builder with 20 years experience can work a lot faster and more efficiently than a newcomer, in these times that experienced builder has to reduce his hourly rate to meet the market. Anything else is just sticking your head in the sand.
As to the comment "More experience = More money", I would respond "More experience = Able to do more in a shorter time/to a better level = Able to take on more work = More money". More experience does not automatically equate to more money, it is the ability to put through greater volume at greater efficiency that means more money. Hence the focus of CAT software, increasing volume throughput far more than increasing quality.
As to "How come your client can "set" a rate?". This is the real world! Everything is based on ROI, and this is defined by the accountants. The marketing department says "We need it!", the sales department says "We must have it!", the IT support staff say "It's essential!", but the accountant says "If I spend X, I can reasonably expect a return of Z, which means a profit/cost saving. But if I have to spend Y to get Z, then I have no profit/cost saving, so I won't do it." That is why a client will set a budget. That is the way business works.
Tell me, for those of a similar age, can you remember those terrible VHS instruction manuals from the '80s? Most of the time they were unintelligible (at least the English translations were). And they never got better until translation costs dropped in the 90's and it made sense, from a ROI perspective, to have them translated properly. Nothing to do with complaints from buyers, it was purely dollars and cents.
And to everyone, I appreciate your comments, but please don't automatically start bashing the agencies. Give agencies their due. Agencies are the ones who expand the translation marketplace. Agencies are the ones who grow the translation market. Agencies go cold calling to corporations, businesses etc. and explain the benefits of quality translation. Agencies are the ones who explain why Google translations are not the best for front page of the website; agencies sell professional translation. Agencies are the ones who take away the hassle of "managing" the translation process from the client. Agencies solve the "its too hard" problem and actually generate the work. And when the client gets comfortable with the process they dump the agency and go direct with freelancers (Guess why? Lower cost!). But don't forget that the agency got the client onto the translation cycle in the beginning.
Of course, agencies are in it for a $, just as translators don't translate for free, but how many individual translators actually try and cold sell translation to potential clients (especially outside of their language pair)? How many translators have researched a potential client, then walked up to a company and said "I think you should have your website in languages X, Y and Z"? How many translators spend hours and hours doing market research, proving a potential market, drawing up ROI proofs and powerpoint presentations, and going through endless meetings with marketing executives in client organisations? It is not all beer and skittles at this end of the operation! If an agency goes and cold sells a client into translating their 300k word website to 10 languages, how many translators, editors and proofreaders benefit from that? Again, I am no Saint, I'm not doing this for free, but I do feel that agencies perform an essential part of the cycle, in that, from a translator's point of view, agencies create a large % of the total market in the first place.
I wonder if translators have any idea of what % of business just walks in through the door of its own free will, and what % has to be actually sought out and sold to.
Come on, be fair, agencies are not the enemy here. Please don't use this to try and bash when i am just trying to point out what are, from an agency perspective, obvious issues with the proposal.
Please feel free to respond to my other points. And finally, if the proposal to remove rates from projects is so strongly desired by translators, why have some 83% of respondents to the survey stated that they want to know the translation buyer's budget/rates?
What was the percentage of translators who responded to the survey among all Proz members? What percentage of Proz members represents ProZ in the global translation market? Are these percentages quite significant?
I do not know how many translators do marketing tasks for themselves. But, I can tell you that in my case my job is 60% marketing, 30% translation related tasks (translating, editing, dtp, printing, etc) and 10% administrative tasks, more or less. As for being freelance, I am not by choice. The big Spanish agency I worked for was acquired by a another big Canadian company that forced his bankruptcy just to eliminate competition. Thanks God, I could save some customers in my language pair and some more for some of my former colleagues. But, I realized at once I could offer the same services as my former employer offered them, by mean of strategical alliances: I knew their translators, their customers, their commercial strategies and their suppliers. What am I not able to do, that an agency is able to do?
And this is not bashing any agency. Translation agencies have their raison d'etre. Translation brokers, hasn’t. It's just a different point of view of the market. If a translator does not want to perform marketing tasks and he is willing to pay for it (with this, I am speaking to reduce his income to the half, as translation agencies really need this marge to stay in business and have some benefit after paying taxes) or believes that the time he saves is worth, then I agree. He should look for agencies jobs. But, I do not think it will survive for long time in business in current times, nor to do a decent live by translating only. Like any other service provider, translators are or at least should be first and foremost businessmen/businesswomen. And, as like as any other company in the market will do, we must also cut our costs down by all avalaible means. Suppressing intermediaries is only one of them, as like knowledge leverage or any other. At least, a matter of personal choice of marketing strategy, I guess...
[Editado a las 2010-04-04 13:52 GMT]
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a2ztranslate wrote:
As a service industry, most corporations look at services first to cut costs. That is just plain business reality. So we cop it first and hardest.
No need for crises, all corporations will always be on the lookout for cutting costs. However 2¢/w translation is like going as low as replacing safety helmets with straw hats in their manufacturing plants.
a2ztranslate wrote:
As to "How come your client can "set" a rate?". This is the real world! Everything is based on ROI, and this is defined by the accountants. The marketing department says "We need it!", the sales department says "We must have it!", the IT support staff say "It's essential!", but the accountant says "If I spend X, I can reasonably expect a return of Z, which means a profit/cost saving. But if I have to spend Y to get Z, then I have no profit/cost saving, so I won't do it." That is why a client will set a budget. That is the way business works.
... to a certain limit. They won't replace steel rods with spaghetti because it's cheaper, otherwise they won't have a saleable product.
a2ztranslate wrote:
Tell me, for those of a similar age, can you remember those terrible VHS instruction manuals from the '80s? Most of the time they were unintelligible (at least the English translations were). And they never got better until translation costs dropped in the 90's and it made sense, from a ROI perspective, to have them translated properly. Nothing to do with complaints from buyers, it was purely dollars and cents.
Right on the spot!
Last year I happened to meet an importer of electronic gizmos from the Far East. Btw, I'm in Brazil. They found a manufacturer with good quality and rock-bottom prices, and imported some tens of thousands of a feature-packed MP-player. A real hit, sold a lot. The manufacturer was kind enough to include (as required by law) instruction manuals, machine-translated into Portuguese. I assume 1/3 of the buyers never read the instructions, as 2 out of every 3 followed them to the dot, and ruined the unit on the very first attempt to use it. The importer had to repair or replace in warranty (= at no charge) 2 out of every 3 units they sold.
A very expensive way to cut costs. I assume neither the manufacturer nor the importer had a budget for translation.
a2ztranslate wrote:
And to everyone, I appreciate your comments, but please don't automatically start bashing the agencies. Give agencies their due. Agencies are the ones who expand the translation marketplace.
No doubt about it. However I guess that for each serious, professional translation agency there are four fly-by-nite, lo- or no-capital operators posing as a translation agency and trying to make a quick buck by exploiting amateur work. A clever web designer can give such a kitchen table outfit the look and feel of a megabucks corporation over the web.
a2ztranslate wrote:
Come on, be fair, agencies are not the enemy here. Please don't use this to try and bash when i am just trying to point out what are, from an agency perspective, obvious issues with the proposal.
Amateur agencies are the enemy, when the end-client fails to see the difference between them and the true professional agencies. Yet a professional agency steps down to amateur level when they fail to discern an amateur from a professional translator, attempting to fit a job into an unrealistically small budget.
[Edited at 2010-04-04 14:13 GMT]
| | | | | It is not bashing agenices in general... | Apr 4, 2010 |
... It is just not accepting arguments that hardly support themselves...
I work with both agencies and direct clients, and I consider them equal. I have to do the same administrative tasks whether I am dealing with a direct client or an agency, I deliver the same quality, and charge the same rate. If an end client requests revising/proofreading by an external source, then the rate will increase a bit. Agencies normally do not make such requests because they take care of revision/pro... See more ... It is just not accepting arguments that hardly support themselves...
I work with both agencies and direct clients, and I consider them equal. I have to do the same administrative tasks whether I am dealing with a direct client or an agency, I deliver the same quality, and charge the same rate. If an end client requests revising/proofreading by an external source, then the rate will increase a bit. Agencies normally do not make such requests because they take care of revision/proofreading internally.
Also, I become equally upset when a direct client or an agency do not respect their side of the agreement regarding payment, but I become furious when an agency uses the excuse of not paying me because their end client has not paid them. We have discussed this ad nauseam: We cannot just tell the credit card company that this month we are not paying our bills because our employer/contractor was late to pay us, so why do agencies believe the can pull this one on translators?
I have ceased to work with agencies that pay late, request reductions in price, use excuses to try to pay less after the job has been delivered, send mass e-mails to see which of their freelancers will offer the lowest rate, or argue that they are saving me any kind of time/money just because they "find" and "deal" with end clients; I do this too, so I am not impressed.
I only work with ethical agencies who choose me because I am fit for the work they have at hand, who respect my rate and payment terms, and who do not think they are making me a "favor" through their marketing and management. The relationships is one of mutual collaboration and respect, and nothing else. I will never bash any of these agencies, on the contrary, I praise them all the time. The others... well, as the saying goes, every action provokes a reaction, so be ready when the reaction comes to you, and if the action is not nice, why the reaction should be?
Regarding the Proz modifications, I agree that they are not perfect, and that they come quite late, but they are still a good beginning; hopefully from here on things will move faster and in a more positive direction.
[Edited at 2010-04-04 14:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Andrej
Local time: 17:52
Member (2005)
German to Russian
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| Different problems or why I should do a favour for an agency | Apr 4, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
I did not intend to say that the value of an experienced translator (their training, experience, software, hardware etc.) approximates anything near that of a new translator. But we have been in really tough economic times in the last 18 months or so, and no more so than in the translation industry. As a service industry, most corporations look at services first to cut costs. That is just plain business reality. So we cop it first and hardest.
I do not know what kind of "really tough economic times" we have. I work just as usual in the last 18 months. So it is not my problem. And I cannot understand why I should solve the problems of agencies at my expense. Not to mention the fact that if a translator reduced her/his rates for an agency (to help the agency to survive) it would be hardly possible to increase the rates again after this agency is successfully survived. We all know this. There are a lot of double standards in this field and most of them do not correspond with translator's interests.
[Edited at 2010-04-04 15:30 GMT]
| | | | Kamta Prasad
India
Local time: 17:22
Member (2007)
English to Hindi
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| Some thoughts on third worlds stand point | Apr 4, 2010 |
Dear all, in my country its a general practice --- there are so many lairs of outsourcers. Every idiots want to be an outsourcers. In this process of subletting the jobs to other only real translators and end clients suffers. Middleman wants lion shares and only gives job to those people who quotes lowest. In this process quality suffers.
Lastly sorry for my broken English as my native language is Hindi/Urdu.
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Cent no. 1:
While it is true that in hard times some services are easier to axe than anything else, the indispensable services are the last item to go, I would say. I still haven't seen any agency who decided to discard their Internet provider's services, for instance. Yes, they might search for a cheaper service, but certainly they are not out there waving a $1 note and crying *This is our budget for the Internet connection and we expect to get at least reasonable service with it!* Someho... See more Cent no. 1:
While it is true that in hard times some services are easier to axe than anything else, the indispensable services are the last item to go, I would say. I still haven't seen any agency who decided to discard their Internet provider's services, for instance. Yes, they might search for a cheaper service, but certainly they are not out there waving a $1 note and crying *This is our budget for the Internet connection and we expect to get at least reasonable service with it!* Somehow they know that's not possible, but they tend to accept such behaviour from their own customers even if they should be aware the customers need to communicate (=get things translated into the language required) the same as the agencies need to communicate (=have a reliable Internet connection). How come?
Cent no. 2:
It seems to me that the topic starter completely misunderstands my (and anybody else's) business objectives. S/he thinks that my objective is to fill up my working week, so when I have a gap in between my 0.15 jobs, I should take on a 0.02 job to fill it up. However, my real objective is to have as many gaps as possible within the working week while securing a reasonable income. Consequently, if I land a one-hour job which earns the equivalent of my regular monthly income, I might take on another one of the same sort, but my greed is not so big as to prevent my spending the remainder of the month on the beach instead of fulfilling his/her expectations by fishing for that 0.02 job.
After all, the wheel was invented to avoid hard work and not to maximise it, right?
P.S. I am among the ones who opted for seeing the outsourcer's budget before bidding for jobs. The reason is simple - efficient marketing. But I think that very soon no budget will be displayed. Those having a budget have too much to do with my Cent no. 1.
[Edited at 2010-04-04 16:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | To a2ztranslate: aren't you misunderstanding something? | Apr 4, 2010 |
Dear a2ztranslate,
Thank you for contributing - it is important to see the viewpoints of many participants of the market.
However, when I read your original posting, I was wondering whether you actually read through the list of proposed changes:
http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/changes
It seems to me that your disagreement with the "new system" is based on the... See more Dear a2ztranslate,
Thank you for contributing - it is important to see the viewpoints of many participants of the market.
However, when I read your original posting, I was wondering whether you actually read through the list of proposed changes:
http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/changes
It seems to me that your disagreement with the "new system" is based on the assumption that you will not be able to specify your budget at all, and you will be flooded with quotes that you prefer not to see at all (since they are over your budget).
Well, here are a few excerpts from the proposal page (bold face highlighting is mine):
1. The pricing field will be removed from the job posting form. This change is consistent with the fact that the individual translator is in the best position to determine what he or she needs to charge to deliver the quality required on a particular job.
I am pretty sure you read this, but is it possible you stopped reading here?
Because the next point is this:
2. When consistent with member preference, posters will be given an opportunity to specify a budget range (after having posted).
An option to enter budget information will appear, with a suitable explanation, when among those who meet the specified criteria there are one or more members who prefer to take budget information into consideration when deciding whether or not to quote.
3. Even when a client budget range has been specified, it will not be published by default.
Client budget ranges will be accessible only to members who (1) have expressed a preference to consider client budgets, and (2) meet the specified job criteria. (This eliminates the possibility for the job posting system to be used to "popularize" low rates.)
So, you will still be able to specify your budget, and those that meet the criteria will see it. If a translator meets the criteria, but prefers not to see your budget, he/she will not see it, so yes, theoretically, you may receive "unrealistically high" quotes, but you know what? So far, 83% of those responded on the proposal page set their preference to see the budget. So, there are 17% who don't want to see your budget, now how many of those will be in the language pair and specialization of the next job you are going to post? What percentage of those will meet the other criteria that you will set for the job? And finally, what percentage of those you think will have a definite rate that is higher than your budget for that job? So, in reality, how many of those unwanted quotes are going to flood your mailbox?
According to #2, there may be some cases when you won't be able to enter your budget. When is that? When there is NOONE that wants to see your budget. What is the probability of that? (I don't know, but you can run through the same logic as above.) If there is at least ONE, single translator meeting your criteria with the preference set to see the budget, you will be able to enter it.
So, all in all, I don't see a real problem for you.
Or am I misunderstanding something?
Katalin
[Edited at 2010-04-04 17:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| I agree completely with you! | Apr 5, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
Have been following the debate on the new proposals, but haven't seen much from the buyer's side. A bit of background first though.
Agency based in New Zealand
Don't pay the highest rates by a long way ($NZ does not go far in Euro!)
Blue Board of 5; take pride in paying on time (even when client goes bust!)
We face the same issue (rates reduction) with our clients as translators face, and tend to refuse (ever so politely) those idiots that ask us to do 500 words at 0.01.
In all honesty, I think the new proposal is just lose (buyer)-lose (translator)-lose (ProZ). It fails in several areas, but here are a few I think relevant.
1. There is no "set" rate for translation for one language pair, let alone between different language pairs. As an example, in our database of translators, for EN-FR we have translators who set their minimum rate in a range from 0.02 through to 0.24 per word. Translators have always had the ability to set their own rates; just because I post a project 25% below your minimum rate does not mean you have to change your rate.
2. An experienced translator can actually set a lower rate than a new translator, as the experienced translator will be able to complete more words per hour than a new translator, in order to achieve the target hourly/weekly income. So we end up shutting out new translators if they are not able to accept lower priced projects to get experience.
3. A huge waste of time for both translators and buyers sorting through applications for a project when we can't define the rates. Why would translators want to waste time applying for a project they have no hope of getting as their personal rates are higher than the target rate? And why would I, as a buyer, want to waste time on sorting through applications that don't fit the project profile?
4. I have a budget to work to. That is set by my client. There are times when I have to refuse a project because I know I won't be able to find translators to meet the budget. But in those marginal cases isn't it better that translators have the option to take on some work to fill in a gap in their schedule, even if it is less than their target rate?
To me, what will happen is that if buyers end up spending too much time on projects posted in ProZ (and particularly if they get a lot of proposals at rates that are ridiculously high, and believe me we get them!), then they will just switch translation portal. After all, there are plenty out there. So there will be less jobs on ProZ, so less translators will pay full fees, so slowly the portal will die.
I think a far better option is for ProZ to go out (e.g. annually) and survey a sub-set of experienced translators (say full members for minimum 3 years) in each language pair, and then publish those rates, words per hour etc. for buyers to have access to, so buyers can be educated and come to an understanding of what realistic pricing is.
Finally, 83% of translators who have responded to the survey here on ProZ want to see the translation buyer's target rates and budget. So, is this new system something that translators really want? More importantly, is it something the genuine buyers want or could agree to? Has ProZ surveyed its regular buyers to see what effect this system will have on them?
Agree 100% with you
| | | | Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:52
Russian to English
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In memoriam | Agency wanted me to chase their defaulting clients | Apr 5, 2010 |
I was recently approached by an agency whose conditions of employment included a clause saying that if their client did not pay them, they would not pay me, but would forward me the client's details so that I could pursue him for payment myself. I refused to accept this clause and have not hear from the agency since.
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 13:52
English to German
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| Yes, please more experience, faster, cheaper. | Apr 5, 2010 |
Andrej wrote: a2ztranslate wrote: ... An experienced translator can actually set a lower rate than a new translator... So you mean that I have worked hard, gathered experience and invested my money and time in education, books etc. with the only aim to give you a big discount as I became a really experienced translator in GE-RU pair now? I am terrible sorry, but I thought that I did all these things to earn more. Your approach is the strangest one I have ever seen.
sorry, a2ztranslate, but:
exactly.
but what's even more striking is that this comes together with "So we end up shutting out new translators if they are not able to accept lower priced projects to get experience." - so in fact this is talking about the ability to 'offer' low rates in order to let beginning experienced professionals accept them because they are experienced beginners needing experience while working on their professional speed low rates gaining experience by providing their experience.
hm.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 12:56 GMT]
| | | | | Flamed ? It's not even a recently-extinguished match | Apr 5, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
Kind of knew I was on a hiding to nothing when I made the post, so to be expected. It would seem that many of the respondents here have a very low opinion of agencies.
I can only speak for myself (anything else is against the rules) but I have an excellent opinion of a number of agencies, including those I work with (rather than "for") and a number of outsourcers who post on these forums making coherent, well-considered points about the business from an agency perspective. I have a low opinion of ill-considered and illogical viewpoints.
The reason that I mentioned the "even when the client goes bust" thing was I just had a discussion with a translator the other day about how he could resolve a situation where he worked for an agency, the agency claimed the client had gone bust and not paid, so the agency wasn't going to pay the translator.
OK, so you mentioned an incident that was fresh in your mind, but you can see how my inference arose. Unless you have managed to persuade a translator to sign some fairly unusual (but not impossible and to the best of my knowledge quite legitimate in dealings between independent businesses not acting under duress) terms and conditions, the reason for an agency not paying a translator is utterly irrelevant. Non-payment is non-payment is non-payment. There is no special dispensation for agencies that are not paid by the end client.
No matter what u do to ascertain a client's credit-worthiness, you will always get caught out in the end
U (sic) could always take out credit insurance...
Anyway, apart from that, I agree with everything Aguas de Marco said. And in essence, if all you are competing on is price, then yes, it's only gonna go one way...
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apk12
Germany
Local time: 13:52
English to German
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| ...addendum... | Apr 5, 2010 |
short addendum to post above:
but what's maybe even more striking than that is the following:
a2ztranslate wrote:
...As an example, in our database of translators, for EN-FR we have translators who set their minimum rate in a range from 0.02 through to 0.24 per word.
...
erm with full respect. but I think, the information that a service provider is honestly talking about people in their database setting their rates around 0.02 in language pairs like the given one as of "translators" or even as of "professional translators"... then this for sure is a valuable information for every end client of any possible agency wishing to know some details about the expectable quality of their deliveries...
[Edited at 2010-04-05 13:15 GMT]
| | | | | Thanks for starting this thread | Apr 5, 2010 |
We very rarely get to hear the outsourcer's point of view on this site. I don't agree with everything you've said (especially the bit about more productivity = lower rates), but your input is really valuable.
I'd be interested to hear from some of the companies offering really rock-bottom rates. But maybe that's too much to hope for.
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 13:52
English to German
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| if 0.02 is not rock-bottom... | Apr 5, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:...
I'd be interested to hear from some of the companies offering really rock-bottom rates. But maybe that's too much to hope for.
if 0.02 is not rock-bottom for EN>FR, then now I am really interested in finding out how one could interpret rock-bottom then. (in fact, quite some numbers above 0.02 belong to this range
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/161854-how_to_improve_proz_blue_board_and_rates_problem_at_the_same_time.html#1362182 )
...if 0.02 is not rock-bottom, I have no idea what rock-bottom could be, then. I fail to believe that a "translator" offering his / her working time to the outsourcer starting this thread for 0.02 in this language pair would not receive offers because he/she would not stay in the databank otherwise and would not have been mentioned by the outsourcer. logically: 0.02-"translators" are getting projects, and they obviously get them from the same company speaking here for the mentioned rate.
of course, the LWA seems to give a different picture, but now after reading this...
addressed to site staff: what if giving the translators the possiblity to categorize the agencies' rates (e.g. as an alternative procedure for cases where agencies do not reveal them themselves) would at the end help the reputation of both - outcoursers' and translators'.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 19:11 GMT]
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