Numeric vs. Numerical Trådens avsändare: Natalia Eklund
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Natalia Eklund 
Frankrike
Local time: 18:11
Franska till Engelska
+ ...
I need your help in a discussion with a fellow translator.
We are interested in the words Numeric vs Numerical.
Is there a difference between them? Would there be a context where one would be more appropriate than the other?
My friend here doesn't feel that 'non-numerical' sounds right and instinctively chooses 'non-numeric'.
I guess the same argument would go with alphabetic vs. alphabetical
For her, even though 'alphabetical' is mostly used, the ch... See more I need your help in a discussion with a fellow translator.
We are interested in the words Numeric vs Numerical.
Is there a difference between them? Would there be a context where one would be more appropriate than the other?
My friend here doesn't feel that 'non-numerical' sounds right and instinctively chooses 'non-numeric'.
I guess the same argument would go with alphabetic vs. alphabetical
For her, even though 'alphabetical' is mostly used, the choice depends on the context. She prefers to say for example, an 'alphabetic field' (content), but 'alphabetical value'
She is British and I am American; is this a difference in types of English? Or, (as we suspect) does 'numeric' appear to be gaining acceptability in general English, especially in the IT industry?
We looked in several dictionnairies already and we can't find any information to help us out. They all list the two words as interchangeable
The result of our discussion will define how we translate our documents in the future, so we really need to agree now ▲ Collapse
| | | | foghorn
Engelska till Turkiska
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| no substantial difference | May 12, 2009 |
i don’t think there is a substantial difference but again
"This parameter only accepts alphanumeric values."
"Than this is an alphanumerical parameter."
functional property of each use, seems totally conventional.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 18:11
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
+ ...
| Numeric vs Numerical | May 12, 2009 |
I'd give preference to " numerical"
" Numeric" is not even listed as a form in my Cambridge ( EN -EN) dictionary (2002).
I think numeric is outdated, as -al adjective suffixes are younger than -ic.
In fact, numerical was derived from numeric ( and therefore it's more updated and newer), which is why, I suppose, numeric is not listed in the mentioned dictionary that I take as authority. ( they usually list all existing, current and grammatical forms that... See more I'd give preference to " numerical"
" Numeric" is not even listed as a form in my Cambridge ( EN -EN) dictionary (2002).
I think numeric is outdated, as -al adjective suffixes are younger than -ic.
In fact, numerical was derived from numeric ( and therefore it's more updated and newer), which is why, I suppose, numeric is not listed in the mentioned dictionary that I take as authority. ( they usually list all existing, current and grammatical forms that are out there- US/UK/Aussy/NZ)
I believe this is related to grammar conventions.. They simply have a conference one day and decide that, from today, " numerical" will be grammatically correct, and they add it as an official convention.
p.s. this is just my free interpretation. ▲ Collapse
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Natalia Eklund
Frankrike
Local time: 18:11
Franska till Engelska
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | prosody and English variations | May 12, 2009 |
The problem with the prosody solution, is that we've already tried that, which is why we're here.
My instinct says one (ex. non-numerical) whereas her instinct says the other (ex. non-numeric).
Maybe it is our backgrounds dictating what seems more appropriate.
[Edited at 2009-05-12 13:26 GMT]
| | | | foghorn
Engelska till Turkiska
+ ...
| grammar/grammatical convention | May 12, 2009 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
I believe this is related to grammar conventions.. They simply have a conference one day and decide that, from today, " numerical" will be grammatically correct, and they add it as an official convention.
p.s. this is just my free interpretation.
Again, is it a “grammar convention” or a “grammatical convention”
Is it the same ‘problem’?
[Edited at 2009-05-12 09:15 GMT]
| | | | foghorn
Engelska till Turkiska
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“Numerical” can’t be used as a noun but “numeric” can.
This must be that subtle difference.
| | | | | Instinct's a funny thing, ain't it? | May 12, 2009 |
My instinct said "non-numeric" for data (e.g., non-numeric characters, strings, etc.), but you have to take into account that my knowledge of IT is pretty solid and that I have some programming experience under my belt (SQL, C++, Java, etc.). Anyway, to make a long story short, I looked around a little and, lo and behold, Microsoft, Oracle, and Sun Microsystems (well, Sun is now part of Oracle, but I digress...) all agreed - so, as far as IT and data types are concerned, it's usually "non-nume... See more My instinct said "non-numeric" for data (e.g., non-numeric characters, strings, etc.), but you have to take into account that my knowledge of IT is pretty solid and that I have some programming experience under my belt (SQL, C++, Java, etc.). Anyway, to make a long story short, I looked around a little and, lo and behold, Microsoft, Oracle, and Sun Microsystems (well, Sun is now part of Oracle, but I digress...) all agreed - so, as far as IT and data types are concerned, it's usually "non-numeric."
Just in case you were wondering though, my instinct would say "non-numerical" in other areas that are not as far removed from IT as you might think. ▲ Collapse
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Lingua 5B
Bosnien och Hercegovina
Local time: 18:11
Medlem (2009)
Engelska till Kroatiska
+ ...
foghorn wrote:
Lingua 5B wrote:
I believe this is related to grammar conventions.. They simply have a conference one day and decide that, from today, " numerical" will be grammatically correct, and they add it as an official convention.
p.s. this is just my free interpretation.
Again, is it a “grammar convention” or a “grammatical convention”
Is it the same ‘problem’?
[Edited at 2009-05-12 09:15 GMT]
No, it's not the same problem.. grammar is not ending with -ic, and is not an adjective in form. It's a similar problem. In this specific case, grammar is a noun ( premodificator) functioning as an adjective. “grammatical convention” is also correct and perhaps more common.
Your argument with numerical as a noun is good.
Test, pluralization:
numericals
numerics ( doesn't work)
So yes, numerical can be a noun, whereas numeric can't. That's just one feature. I'm sure there are much more.
| | | | Pedroski
Kina
Local time: 00:11
Engelska till Tyska
| mixed up nouns | May 15, 2009 |
Taken from Websters Online Dictionary:
A numerical preponderance: (my comment: this is a preponderance in numbers number has become the adjective numerical)
numeric
2 entries found.
1. 1 numeric (adjective)
2. 2 numeric (noun)
Main Entry: numerical
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin numerus
Date:
1628
1 : of or relating to numbers 2 : expressed in or ... See more
| | | | | Google as grammar advisor | Mar 14, 2014 |
I know this is a five-year-old thread, but this may help others: when in doubt or whenever I can't make up my mind because both variations are acceptable, I often rely on Google Trends as a sort of tie breaker. Example:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q="numeric%20value",%20"numerical%20value"&cmpt=q
In this case, I'd le... See more I know this is a five-year-old thread, but this may help others: when in doubt or whenever I can't make up my mind because both variations are acceptable, I often rely on Google Trends as a sort of tie breaker. Example:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q="numeric%20value",%20"numerical%20value"&cmpt=q
In this case, I'd lean towards "numeric value", but as you can see the gap isn't very large. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
Kina
Local time: 00:11
Kinesiska till Engelska
| physical vs. notional | Mar 14, 2014 |
To me, it would be ill-formed to say "numerical keypad". If it's a physical thing with numbers on, I would always choose numeric. If it's a concept, I would allow either: numerical example/numeric example.
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Giles Watson
Italien
Local time: 18:11
Italienska till Engelska
In memoriam | Intrinsically or generally connected with the root notion | Mar 14, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
To me, it would be ill-formed to say "numerical keypad". If it's a physical thing with numbers on, I would always choose numeric.
This is more or less the line the OED takes in its little essay on the "-ical" suffix.
For example, a "comic opera" is intrinsically connected with the concept of comedy (i.e. it is intended to make you laugh) whereas a "comical opera" has a looser connection with the root notion (it makes you laugh because it is badly acted or produced, perhaps). In most cases, the "-ical" form appeared first and the "-ic" form developed because of a perceived need to distinguish between degrees of connection.
That said, there is a distinct tendency for US English to prefer the "-ic" form in many borderline cases where UK English opts for "-ical".
[Edited at 2014-03-14 13:22 GMT]
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