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请帮忙审核一下这句话的翻译
Thread poster: Seaguest
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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FWIW Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

第一个我觉得似乎译为“领悟”比较好。

第二个我觉得用“抓住、捉住”讲得通。



I tend to agree with J.H. on this.
 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
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达成了一致意见 Nov 25, 2013

wherestip wrote:

Last night I went to bed early. We're having an ice storm here in Austin that's gonna spread to the eastern part of the United States right before Thanksgiving. So they're predicting travel is gonna be a mess. But anyway, as soon as I got into bed, it dawned on me what the "that" might stand for in this sentence. So I posted that thought and jumped right back into bed.

Just now I went over the Merriam-Webster entry of "that" that I posted a link to yesterday. Here is the meaning that might back up that thought of mine:



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/that?show=0&t=1385380388


2 that conjunction \thət, ˈthat\
—used to introduce a clause that is the subject or object of a verb

—used to introduce a clause that completes or explains the meaning of a previous noun or adjective or of the pronoun it

—used to introduce a clause that states a reason or purpose



Anyway, FWIW.


Hi Steve, 这样我们就达成了一致意见。我后来也认为 that 这里是连词，引出一个宾语从句。





这里的 that 应该是个连词，而不是代词。它引导后面的 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 作为 apprehend 的宾语从句，不过这里的难点在于 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 同时也是一个非限定定语从句，其中 which 指代前面的 dedication and sacrifice 。
 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 13:43
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In agreement Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Last night I went to bed early. We're having an ice storm here in Austin that's gonna spread to the eastern part of the United States right before Thanksgiving. So they're predicting travel is gonna be a mess. But anyway, as soon as I got into bed, it dawned on me what the "that" might stand for in this sentence. So I posted that thought and jumped right back into bed.

Just now I went over the Merriam-Webster entry of "that" that I posted a link to yesterday. Here is the meaning that might back up that thought of mine:



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/that?show=0&t=1385380388


2 that conjunction \thət, ˈthat\
—used to introduce a clause that is the subject or object of a verb

—used to introduce a clause that completes or explains the meaning of a previous noun or adjective or of the pronoun it

—used to introduce a clause that states a reason or purpose



Anyway, FWIW.


Hi Steve, 这样我们就达成了一致意见。我后来也认为 that 这里是连词，引出一个宾语从句。





这里的 that 应该是个连词，而不是代词。它引导后面的 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 作为 apprehend 的宾语从句，不过这里的难点在于 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 同时也是一个非限定定语从句，其中 which 指代前面的 dedication and sacrifice 。






I think so.

 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
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Hope everything is OK with you there! Nov 25, 2013

wherestip wrote:

We're having an ice storm here in Austin that's gonna spread to the eastern part of the United States right before Thanksgiving.


我记得小时候在家乡里曾发生过一次 ice storm，路面非常光滑，走路很困难。最危险的是，一般第一次出门时注意不到，不小心就会摔一跤。
 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:43
Chinese to English
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Thanks Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

wherestip wrote:

We're having an ice storm here in Austin that's gonna spread to the eastern part of the United States right before Thanksgiving.


我记得小时候在家乡里曾发生过一次 ice storm，路面非常光滑，走路很困难。最危险的是，一般第一次出门时注意不到，不小心就会摔一跤。



We had one of those in the '90s where you can't even walk on the sidewalk This one is a light one. You mostly have to be very careful driving; but I'm not going anywhere.
 
Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
谢谢 Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Last night I went to bed early. We're having an ice storm here in Austin that's gonna spread to the eastern part of the United States right before Thanksgiving. So they're predicting travel is gonna be a mess. But anyway, as soon as I got into bed, it dawned on me what the "that" might stand for in this sentence. So I posted that thought and jumped right back into bed.

Just now I went over the Merriam-Webster entry of "that" that I posted a link to yesterday. Here is the meaning that might back up that thought of mine:



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/that?show=0&t=1385380388


2 that conjunction \thət, ˈthat\
—used to introduce a clause that is the subject or object of a verb

—used to introduce a clause that completes or explains the meaning of a previous noun or adjective or of the pronoun it

—used to introduce a clause that states a reason or purpose



Anyway, FWIW.


Hi Steve, 这样我们就达成了一致意见。我后来也认为 that 这里是连词，引出一个宾语从句。





这里的 that 应该是个连词，而不是代词。它引导后面的 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 作为 apprehend 的宾语从句，不过这里的难点在于 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 同时也是一个非限定定语从句，其中 which 指代前面的 dedication and sacrifice 。






看了那么多讨论，真是受益匪浅。但我现在觉得，如果把第一个apprehend理解为“领悟”，或者把that当成连词的话，整句话翻译下来就没办法体现出那种类比和递进的关系，显得虎头蛇尾了。所以我还是倾向于把两个词都翻译成“抓住”的意思。我觉得这样会使整段话的意思和语气显得完整连贯。
 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
+ ...
后半句话的难点 Nov 25, 2013

Seaguest wrote:

看了那么多讨论，真是受益匪浅。但我现在觉得，如果把第一个apprehend理解为“领悟”，或者把that当成连词的话，整句话翻译下来就没办法体现出那种类比和递进的关系，显得虎头蛇尾了。所以我还是倾向于把两个词都翻译成“抓住”的意思。我觉得这样会使整段话的意思和语气显得完整连贯。





这里的 that 应该是个连词，而不是代词。它引导后面的 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 作为 apprehend 的宾语从句，不过这里的难点在于 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 同时也是一个非限定定语从句，其中 which 指代前面的 dedication and sacrifice 。







[Edited at 2013-11-25 12:39 GMT]
 
Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
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Local time: 02:43
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TOPIC STARTER
理解 Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

Seaguest wrote:

看了那么多讨论，真是受益匪浅。但我现在觉得，如果把第一个apprehend理解为“领悟”，或者把that当成连词的话，整句话翻译下来就没办法体现出那种类比和递进的关系，显得虎头蛇尾了。所以我还是倾向于把两个词都翻译成“抓住”的意思。我觉得这样会使整段话的意思和语气显得完整连贯。





这里的 that 应该是个连词，而不是代词。它引导后面的 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 作为 apprehend 的宾语从句，不过这里的难点在于 for which they’ve been apprehended by the Lord of Life Himself 同时也是一个非限定定语从句，其中 which 指代前面的 dedication and sacrifice 。







[Edited at 2013-11-25 12:39 GMT]


我明白。不过我更倾向于把that 和which都解释成dedication and sacrifice。这样由逗号分开的前后从句就可以有一种对称的形式和递进的语气关系。而且，我认为，dedication and sacrifice不是一个理解的问题，而是一个实践的问题。所以我把句子先调整为这样，然后再翻译。

1，communism can motivate dedication and sacrifice for the goals of Marxism,
2，Christians should apprehend dedication and sacrifice，because God has apprehended them for thdir dedication and sacrifice
 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
+ ...
再进一步 Nov 25, 2013

Seaguest wrote:

2，Christians should apprehend dedication and sacrifice，because God has apprehended them for thdir dedication and sacrifice



这里暂且把第二个 apprehend 当做抓住理解。如果这样理解的话，这里的 for 应该是表示目的，而不是表示原因。

根据这种理解，那么我觉得第2句应该这样理解：

Christians should understand that it is for dedication and sacrifice that God has apprehended them.

基督徒应该明白，生命之主”逮住“他们的正是为了让他们做出奉献和牺牲。


不知道这种解释如何？

[Edited at 2013-11-25 13:09 GMT]
 
Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
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我是这样理解的 Nov 25, 2013

J.H. Wang wrote:

Seaguest wrote:

2，Christians should apprehend dedication and sacrifice，because God has apprehended them for thdir dedication and sacrifice



这里暂且把第二个 apprehend 当做抓住理解。如果这样理解的话，这里的 for 应该是表示目的，而不是表示原因。

根据这种理解，那么我觉得第2句应该这样理解：

Christians should understand that it is for dedication and sacrifice that God has apprehended them.

基督徒应该明白，生命之主”逮住“他们的正是为了让他们做出奉献和牺牲。


不知道这种解释如何？

[Edited at 2013-11-25 13:09 GMT]


在形式上，第一个apprehend是与motivate对称的；但在语气上上，它应该比motivate更强些。而且从语境来看，作者所强调的是一种做某件事的意志力，而非认识。如果单纯从这一句话来看，我很认同你和wherestip的意见。但如果从整段话的大意，我更倾向于把apprehend理解为抓住。
 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 13:43
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A Reference Nov 25, 2013

As I said before, I'm not too big on theology nor Bible studies. But here I found this verse Philippians 3:12 that basically has the same sentence structure ...




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:12-14&version=NIV


Philippians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)

 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.




IMHO, since the author was a theologian, she basically was paraphrasing this verse.


http://livingmoreabundantly4christ.com/tag/but-i-press-on-to-take-hold-of-that-for-which-christ-jesus-took-hold-of-me-13-brothers-and-sisters/
 
Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
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Wow Nov 26, 2013

wherestip wrote:

As I said before, I'm not too big on theology nor Bible studies. But here I found this verse Philippians 3:12 that basically has the same sentence structure ...




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:12-14&version=NIV


Philippians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)

 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.




IMHO, since the author was a theologian, she basically was paraphrasing this verse.


http://livingmoreabundantly4christ.com/tag/but-i-press-on-to-take-hold-of-that-for-which-christ-jesus-took-hold-of-me-13-brothers-and-sisters/


Wow！太谢谢了！我没想到圣经里还有这样的句子。的确，作者可能是借用了类似的表达方式，老外看这一句话可能立即就能联想到圣经的典故，但我们就没这个语言背景，就只能硬着头皮琢磨了。谢谢谢谢！我以后真得多看英文圣经，不能偷懒了。
 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:43
Chinese to English
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Finding an answer Nov 26, 2013

Seaguest wrote:

wherestip wrote:

As I said before, I'm not too big on theology nor Bible studies. But here I found this verse Philippians 3:12 that basically has the same sentence structure ...




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:12-14&version=NIV


Philippians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)

 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.




IMHO, since the author was a theologian, she basically was paraphrasing this verse.


http://livingmoreabundantly4christ.com/tag/but-i-press-on-to-take-hold-of-that-for-which-christ-jesus-took-hold-of-me-13-brothers-and-sisters/


Wow！太谢谢了！我没想到圣经里还有这样的句子。的确，作者可能是借用了类似的表达方式，老外看这一句话可能立即就能联想到圣经的典故，但我们就没这个语言背景，就只能硬着头皮琢磨了。谢谢谢谢！我以后真得多看英文圣经，不能偷懒了。


You're very welcome, Seaguest. In a way it's been interesting and fun for me too.

 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
English to Chinese
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Eureka, eureka! Nov 26, 2013

wherestip wrote:

As I said before, I'm not too big on theology nor Bible studies. But here I found this verse Philippians 3:12 that basically has the same sentence structure ...




http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203:12-14&version=NIV


Philippians 3:12-14
New International Version (NIV)

 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.




IMHO, since the author was a theologian, she basically was paraphrasing this verse.


http://livingmoreabundantly4christ.com/tag/but-i-press-on-to-take-hold-of-that-for-which-christ-jesus-took-hold-of-me-13-brothers-and-sisters/


首先，非常感谢 Steve 提供的上述参考资料！相信这次我们可以靠这些资料获得了最终的答案。其实，Seaguest 在最初贴这个贴子时的理解是正确的。我这里尝试详细作一下解读。

尴尬而有趣的是，我不得不推翻我对 that 的理解，再次回到最初对 that 是代词的认识上。

首先，that 并不严格地指代前面 If communism can motivate such dedication and sacrifice for the goals of Marxism 中的某个内容，但也并非毫无关系；是一种类比的关系，前面讲的是 the goals of Marxism，这里 that 指代的是（至少可以说基本上是） the goal of the Lord，生命之主的目的（目标）。这一点，还可以从 Steve 给出的参考资料中看到：

“Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.”

试译如下：

并不是说我已经达到了全部这个，或者已经达到了我的目的，而是说，我一直“抓住”（坚守住、秉持）它，而它正是基督耶稣“抓住”（具体翻译待斟酌，我觉得其意思是说让我成为基督徒） 我的目的。“它”这里就是指目的。

从这里可以看出，基督徒的目的与 Lord 的目的是一致的。所以，才会出现 ......that for which......这样的句式。这跟前面的马克思主义者的目的与马克思主义的目的一致是类似的。

对于apprehend，我同意 Seaguest 的理解，第一个 Seaguest 可翻译为执着、坚守。

[Edited at 2013-11-26 04:20 GMT]
 
Jinhang Wang
Jinhang Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 02:43
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A lesson I learned from this post Nov 26, 2013

做翻译需要对背景知识有相当的了解，否则很难做好，甚至错误百出。
 
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