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The elephant in the room/Behold the KudoZ shenanigans
Thread poster: Korana Lasić
Korana Lasić
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Feb 7, 2021

One will be encouraged to participate in the KudoZ section, from time to time, so I tried.

Just off the top of my head, this is some of what I found there:

(Most of these weren't aimed at me. These are just some of my observations of the KudoZ practices, at least in my language pair, in general. I'm trying to help.)

People give obviously wrong answers and refuse to retract them even after the right answer has been given and agreed upon. Their friends agree
... See more
One will be encouraged to participate in the KudoZ section, from time to time, so I tried.

Just off the top of my head, this is some of what I found there:

(Most of these weren't aimed at me. These are just some of my observations of the KudoZ practices, at least in my language pair, in general. I'm trying to help.)

People give obviously wrong answers and refuse to retract them even after the right answer has been given and agreed upon. Their friends agree with their wrong answers further confusing the matter.

Askers choose the wrong answers as the right one.

Askers and everyone else ignore the right answers because they don't know the person.

People agree with the wrong answers if they like the person and very rudely (bordering on getting personal) disagree with the wrong answer if they don't like the person.

People don't read the question and context carefully and then they answer a whole different question - that wasn't asked. After which they instigate a discussion about it with the person who took the time to carefully read the actual question and context and gave the right answer.

Many KudoZ leaders got their points by obsessively answering questions, about half of which they get painfully wrong. Half they do get right, well, to some extent. Remember, there's a buddy system in place so that accounts for at least some of their points. When they do get things wrong, this type of the 'KudoZ leader' will pick a fight (or try) with anyone disagreeing with their wrong answer, taking it very personally, and suddenly the discussion is no longer about translation and linguistics.

I do find it difficult to believe that this person is supposed to be a leader in, well, anything, making the whole title unfortunate and ironic.

I couldn't care less about all this, to be frank, as I'm not drawn to drama, if the KudoZ section wasn't structured in a way that the most persistent unprofessional fool, especially if they have loads of buddies on here, can get the most points and then display them next to their bio as some sort of an accomplishment. Bad. It can give people who haven't ventured into the mess that is the KudoZ universe a misleading idea of the linguistic prowess of some of these 'leaders' as well as of the people who (for all these reasons) choose not to engage with KudoZ

So, a reasonable person is left with two choices. Participate in this mess in which being a foolish person with perhaps somewhat questionable linguistic skills can be a huge plus or stay out of it and come across as if you aren't exactly 'a linguistic leader'. At least in the eyes of the project managers inexperienced with the KudoZ universe.

I'm very happy with proz.com relative to any other similar service but it needs to be said that the way the KudoZ section is set up is an absolute disaster. The limited number of characters in the agree/disagree and discussion sections is problematic as well. It takes much more time and a greater cognitive load to discuss the answers than it would if the number of characters was less limited and thus less limiting.

Therefore, I suggest either for the very title to be changed to 'KudoZ (mis)leaders' (sorry couldn't resist:)) or perhaps a rethinking of the whole system.

No, but seriously.

Edit: Grammar


[Edited at 2021-02-07 14:08 GMT]
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writeaway
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Sadek_A
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Heavy lobbying Feb 7, 2021

is the dominant trait you will be able to see very clear around here, be it kudoz, job board, or even the forum.

And, I doubt anything will change. They clearly like, and it must be easier to keep, things the way they are now.


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Anton Konashenok
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...And more Feb 7, 2021

Yes, that's exactly what happens on the answer side of KudoZ. In many pairs, there are resident clowns whose answers lack not only knowledge but often even the elementary logic. I wonder if they think they are helping or just consider the whole KudoZ a fun guessing game. Another prolific community is the dictionary quoters not even trying to understand the subject.

On the question side, it's not much better, either - lots of questions that could be unambiguously answered by searchin
... See more
Yes, that's exactly what happens on the answer side of KudoZ. In many pairs, there are resident clowns whose answers lack not only knowledge but often even the elementary logic. I wonder if they think they are helping or just consider the whole KudoZ a fun guessing game. Another prolific community is the dictionary quoters not even trying to understand the subject.

On the question side, it's not much better, either - lots of questions that could be unambiguously answered by searching the web for half a minute, and even more questions betraying the asker's glaring ignorance of the subject matter or the target language.
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Korana Lasić
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Peter Shortall
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A microcosm of life in general Feb 7, 2021

Any system can only be as good as the people who use it. It's the same with so many other things in life. Many rule changes have been suggested and debated over the years. Some tweaks have been made, but no matter what rules are in place, any system that allows people to suggest translations of terms will attract good responses, bad ones, and everything in between. There's no way of forcing askers to choose what any particular person might feel is a good or correct answer, nor do I feel that ask... See more
Any system can only be as good as the people who use it. It's the same with so many other things in life. Many rule changes have been suggested and debated over the years. Some tweaks have been made, but no matter what rules are in place, any system that allows people to suggest translations of terms will attract good responses, bad ones, and everything in between. There's no way of forcing askers to choose what any particular person might feel is a good or correct answer, nor do I feel that askers' hands should be tied. Ultimately, it's their question, and they are responsible for deciding what happens in it. If they choose a bad translation, they risk paying the price for that with their client.

Different people have their different approaches to KudoZ; personality does come into it, I think, and no rules will ever eliminate that element. The behaviours you describe stopped bothering me long ago, it all just washes over me now! To quote a much overused phrase, "it is what it is". Any behaviours and personality traits that you find in life in general will be reflected in KudoZ.

And I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I got back into KudoZ recently after barely participating at all for a decade, and found a few familiar faces as well as some new ones. In the language pairs I look at, there are some very knowledgeable contributors, and I've seen some good answers and interesting questions recently. When the system is working at its best, it can be great. If you ignore the bad and focus on the good, you can learn very interesting and useful things from it, I certainly have. I can't comment on your language pairs specifically, however.

One other thing to bear in mind is that I think translators who are new to the profession may take a while to sharpen their researching and answering skills. Once they've acquired the knack by participating in KudoZ for a while, they can become much better at it, when they've seen how other people go about it and gained more experience of translating. I think I certainly got better at KudoZ with experience, so in some cases, it's just a question of time until people get better - as with so many other things in life.
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writeaway
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In a nutshell Feb 7, 2021

Korana Lasić wrote:

One will be encouraged to participate in the KudoZ section, from time to time, so I tried.

Just off the top of my head, this is some of what I found there:

(Most of these weren't aimed at me. These are just some of my observations of the KudoZ practices, at least in my language pair, in general. I'm trying to help.)

People give obviously wrong answers and refuse to retract them even after the right answer has been given and agreed upon. Their friends agree with their wrong answers further confusing the matter.

Askers choose the wrong answers as the right one.

Askers and everyone else ignore the right answers because they don't know the person.

People agree with the wrong answers if they like the person and very rudely (bordering on getting personal) disagree with the wrong answer if they don't like the person.

People don't read the question and context carefully and then they answer a whole different question - that wasn't asked. After which they instigate a discussion about it with the person who took the time to carefully read the actual question and context and gave the right answer.

Many KudoZ leaders got their points by obsessively answering questions, about half of which they get painfully wrong. Half they do get right, well, to some extent. Remember, there's a buddy system in place so that accounts for at least some of their points. When they do get things wrong, this type of the 'KudoZ leader' will pick a fight (or try) with anyone disagreeing with their wrong answer, taking it very personally, and suddenly the discussion is no longer about translation and linguistics.

I do find it difficult to believe that this person is supposed to be a leader in, well, anything, making the whole title unfortunate and ironic.

I couldn't care less about all this, to be frank, as I'm not drawn to drama, if the KudoZ section wasn't structured in a way that the most persistent unprofessional fool, especially if they have loads of buddies on here, can get the most points and then display them next to their bio as some sort of an accomplishment. Bad. It can give people who haven't ventured into the mess that is the KudoZ universe a misleading idea of the linguistic prowess of some of these 'leaders' as well as of the people who (for all these reasons) choose not to engage with KudoZ

So, a reasonable person is left with two choices. Participate in this mess in which being a foolish person with perhaps somewhat questionable linguistic skills can be a huge plus or stay out of it and come across as if you aren't exactly 'a linguistic leader'. At least in the eyes of the project managers inexperienced with the KudoZ universe.

I'm very happy with proz.com relative to any other similar service but it needs to be said that the way the KudoZ section is set up is an absolute disaster. The limited number of characters in the agree/disagree and discussion sections is problematic as well. It takes much more time and a greater cognitive load to discuss the answers than it would if the number of characters was less limited and thus less limiting.

Therefore, I suggest either for the very title to be changed to 'KudoZ (mis)leaders' (sorry couldn't resist:)) or perhaps a rethinking of the whole system.

No, but seriously.



I am a bit surprised to see when reading this that it now seemingly applies to all language pairs. It certainly does 101% in two of my 3 working pairs. The third one does have its moments: pals do back pals but not as routinely and blatantly as in my other 2 pairs and the tolerance level for sheer nonsense is much lower.
As for renaming KudoZ, several years ago, an esteemed colleague suggested "KiddoZ".


Korana Lasić
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Korana Lasić
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Hey Peter, thank you for your input Feb 7, 2021

'Any system can only be as good as the people who use it.'

Not really, though. A bad system will favour all the wrong practices and things.

'The behaviours you describe stopped bothering me long ago, it all just washes over me now!'

I'm not bothered by the behaviour. I am by a system that can put professionals at a disadvantage relative to the h
... See more
'Any system can only be as good as the people who use it.'

Not really, though. A bad system will favour all the wrong practices and things.

'The behaviours you describe stopped bothering me long ago, it all just washes over me now!'

I'm not bothered by the behaviour. I am by a system that can put professionals at a disadvantage relative to the hacks.

'If you ignore the bad and focus on the good, you can learn very interesting and useful things from it, I certainly have.'

I cannot ignore the fact that anyone trying to participate or use the KudoZ feature/section must sift through piles of utter rubbish. I'm quite astonished at the suggestion.

'...but no matter what rules are in place, any system that allows people to suggest translations of terms will attract good responses, bad ones, and everything in between. There's no way of forcing askers to choose what any particular person might feel is a good or correct answer, nor do I feel that askers' hands should be tied. Ultimately, it's their question, and they are responsible for deciding what happens in it. If they choose a bad translation, they risk paying the price for that with their client.'

Exactly my point. So the title of a leader in linguistics and translation and the points are bogus and misleading.

'One other thing to bear in mind is that I think translators who are new to the profession may take a while to sharpen their researching and answering skills. Once they've acquired the knack by participating in KudoZ for a while, they can become much better at it, when they've seen how other people go about it and gained more experience of translating. I think I certainly got better at KudoZ with experience, so in some cases, it's just a question of time until people get better - as with so many other things in life.'

I wasn't talking about newcomers to the profession but rather seasoned heads having a title at the top of their profile of a leader in the field. I am also not objecting to the sheer number of wrong answers just the number of those who are treated as valid and often correct entries.

I'm sure many KudoZ leaders are exceptional translators. This isn't aimed at them. Frankly, I sympathise, now that I can imagine everything they had to sift through to get there. The thing is, the system allows people who are neither exceptional nor translators to excel at it and gain the same title. That's my whole point.

I do see your point as well, I can just ignore it all the way most of the people here do. I will, but first I had to say something.



[Edited at 2021-02-07 15:26 GMT]
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Korana Lasić
Korana Lasić  Identity Verified
Member
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+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It must be the fact that it's easier to just ignore it Feb 7, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

is the dominant trait you will be able to see very clear around here, be it kudoz, job board, or even the forum.

And, I doubt anything will change. They clearly like, and it must be easier to keep, things the way they are now.

I doubt any company likes to keep bogus systems as part of their offer and design.


 
Korana Lasić
Korana Lasić  Identity Verified
Member
Serbian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
KiddoZ would work :-) Feb 7, 2021

writeaway wrote:

Korana Lasić wrote:

One will be encouraged to participate in the KudoZ section, from time to time, so I tried.

Just off the top of my head, this is some of what I found there:

(Most of these weren't aimed at me. These are just some of my observations of the KudoZ practices, at least in my language pair, in general. I'm trying to help.)

People give obviously wrong answers and refuse to retract them even after the right answer has been given and agreed upon. Their friends agree with their wrong answers further confusing the matter.

Askers choose the wrong answers as the right one.

Askers and everyone else ignore the right answers because they don't know the person.

People agree with the wrong answers if they like the person and very rudely (bordering on getting personal) disagree with the wrong answer if they don't like the person.

People don't read the question and context carefully and then they answer a whole different question - that wasn't asked. After which they instigate a discussion about it with the person who took the time to carefully read the actual question and context and gave the right answer.

Many KudoZ leaders got their points by obsessively answering questions, about half of which they get painfully wrong. Half they do get right, well, to some extent. Remember, there's a buddy system in place so that accounts for at least some of their points. When they do get things wrong, this type of the 'KudoZ leader' will pick a fight (or try) with anyone disagreeing with their wrong answer, taking it very personally, and suddenly the discussion is no longer about translation and linguistics.

I do find it difficult to believe that this person is supposed to be a leader in, well, anything, making the whole title unfortunate and ironic.

I couldn't care less about all this, to be frank, as I'm not drawn to drama, if the KudoZ section wasn't structured in a way that the most persistent unprofessional fool, especially if they have loads of buddies on here, can get the most points and then display them next to their bio as some sort of an accomplishment. Bad. It can give people who haven't ventured into the mess that is the KudoZ universe a misleading idea of the linguistic prowess of some of these 'leaders' as well as of the people who (for all these reasons) choose not to engage with KudoZ

So, a reasonable person is left with two choices. Participate in this mess in which being a foolish person with perhaps somewhat questionable linguistic skills can be a huge plus or stay out of it and come across as if you aren't exactly 'a linguistic leader'. At least in the eyes of the project managers inexperienced with the KudoZ universe.

I'm very happy with proz.com relative to any other similar service but it needs to be said that the way the KudoZ section is set up is an absolute disaster. The limited number of characters in the agree/disagree and discussion sections is problematic as well. It takes much more time and a greater cognitive load to discuss the answers than it would if the number of characters was less limited and thus less limiting.

Therefore, I suggest either for the very title to be changed to 'KudoZ (mis)leaders' (sorry couldn't resist:)) or perhaps a rethinking of the whole system.

No, but seriously.



I am a bit surprised to see when reading this that it now seemingly applies to all language pairs. It certainly does 101% in two of my 3 working pairs. The third one does have its moments: pals do back pals but not as routinely and blatantly as in my other 2 pairs and the tolerance level for sheer nonsense is much lower.
As for renaming KudoZ, several years ago, an esteemed colleague suggested "KiddoZ".


RUKiddingMe-ohNo-Z is another name for what is going on in there.

Maybe I'm expecting too much of proz.com a company? I wish people would tell me if I am.


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
FWIW Feb 7, 2021

In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.

If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene?


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Sadek_A
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A distinction without a difference, I'm afraid Feb 7, 2021

Korana Lasić wrote:
It must be the fact that it's easier to just ignore it
I doubt any company likes to keep bogus systems as part of their offer and design.


Ignoring the rat in the house is keeping the rat in the house.

The system is not bogus in itself, it is -however- being heavily abused by certain someones who are deliberately (for some weird reason(s)) enabled to do so.

Just walk around in the forum and you will see what could very much look like racial/political/social/psychological/or whatever you want to call it "support groups" by certain circles whose members would actually throw a ballistic tantrum if the rest of the group failed to show that covertly agreed-on support at any given point!


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Korana Lasić
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You're missing the point Feb 7, 2021

Chris S wrote:

In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.

If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene?


I don't care how civilised someone is if they are producing translations of very dubious quality and/or getting rewarded with any kind of esteem for it.

The last thing any KudoZ section needs is a nanny, but I am on the libertarian side of things in general.

The thing is, the way KudoZ is set up now there is no way to make sure it will produce anything useful, or even not produce utter rubbish, and you have these people with numbers and points (that are supposed to prove their expertise in particular fields) and titles. Honestly, can you not see why that is problematic?


 
Korana Lasić
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I actually find the forum very useful Feb 7, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

Korana Lasić wrote:
It must be the fact that it's easier to just ignore it
I doubt any company likes to keep bogus systems as part of their offer and design.


Ignoring the rat in the house is keeping the rat in the house.

The system is not bogus in itself, it is -however- being heavily abused by certain someones who are deliberately (for some weird reason(s)) enabled to do so.

Just walk around in the forum and you will see what could very much look like racial/political/social/psychological/or whatever you want to call it "support groups" by certain circles whose members would actually throw a ballistic tantrum if the rest of the group failed to show that covertly agreed-on support at any given point!


Honestly Sadek, I haven't noticed as much. I must say, for me the whole social dynamics here is beside the point. I don't have to participate in the forum and I can still use it to read some really helpful advice from people who have been sole traders and freelancers for many years.

I do find the forum helpful and therefore I don't mind the dynamics of it all. My problem with KudoZ isn't the social dynamics but the problematic quality of the output it produces whilst being set up and marketed as some sort of an accomplishment and proof of quality.

Anyway, maybe I have unreasonably high expectations of our profession as a whole. Perhaps this is how it must be.

Edit: Now that you've mentioned it, I realised that the forum overall manages to accomplish what KudoZ was perhaps set up to do. It's a place where I can find useful input from my peers and the whole whose who and against whom really couldn't matter less.

[Edited at 2021-02-07 17:02 GMT]


 
Christopher Schröder
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@Korana Feb 7, 2021

Korana Lasić wrote:
Honestly, can you not see why that is problematic?

Yes. That's why I made a helpful suggestion about calling in the moderators where the system, which works quite well elsewhere, is being abused.


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Sadek_A
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I'm afraid you're now contradicting for the sake of mere contradiction. Proof? Feb 7, 2021

This is you oppossing Peter Shortall's (among others) relaxed attitude towards kudoz violations "whistleblown" by your very self in this very thread!

Korana Lasić wrote:
'Any system can only be as good as the people who use it.'

Not really, though. A bad system will favour all the wrong practices and things.

'The behaviours you describe stopped bothering me long ago, it all just washes over me now!'

I'm not bothered by the behaviour. I am by a system that can put professionals at a disadvantage relative to the hacks.

'If you ignore the bad and focus on the good, you can learn very interesting and useful things from it, I certainly have.'

I cannot ignore the fact that anyone trying to participate or use the KudoZ feature/section must sift through piles of utter rubbish. I'm quite astonished at the suggestion.



And, this is you showing the same relaxed attitude towards forum violations, which are completely at large, and at many times drove a number of what I assume were respectful participants out of the forum for good, the last of whom was a female who voiced her disgust in the approximate tone of "every time I try to take part in here, I'm faced with utter disrespect and provocation!".
Korana Lasić wrote:
I must say, for me the whole social dynamics here is beside the point.
I don't mind the dynamics of it (the forum) all.


Korana Lasić wrote:
My problem with KudoZ isn't the social dynamics but the problematic quality of the output it produces whilst being set up and marketed as some sort of an accomplishment and proof of quality.

Rhetorical: what do you think the 24/7 forum residents are here for?

Korana Lasić wrote:
I don't have to participate in the forum

You don't have to participate in kudoz either. Just let it be!

I'm now compelled to bid farewell to this discussion, but feel free to continue your effort.


 
Korana Lasić
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+ ...
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I'm sorry if I had been rude to you, Sadek Feb 7, 2021

Sadek_A wrote:

This is you oppossing Peter Shortall's (among others) relaxed attitude towards kudoz violations "whistleblown" by your very self in this very thread!

Korana Lasić wrote:
'Any system can only be as good as the people who use it.'

Not really, though. A bad system will favour all the wrong practices and things.

'The behaviours you describe stopped bothering me long ago, it all just washes over me now!'

I'm not bothered by the behaviour. I am by a system that can put professionals at a disadvantage relative to the hacks.

'If you ignore the bad and focus on the good, you can learn very interesting and useful things from it, I certainly have.'

I cannot ignore the fact that anyone trying to participate or use the KudoZ feature/section must sift through piles of utter rubbish. I'm quite astonished at the suggestion.



And, this is you showing the same relaxed attitude towards forum violations, which are completely at large, and at many times drove a number of what I assume were respectful participants out of the forum for good, the last of whom was a female who voiced her disgust in the approximate tone of "every time I try to take part in here, I'm faced with utter disrespect and provocation!".
Korana Lasić wrote:
I must say, for me the whole social dynamics here is beside the point.
I don't mind the dynamics of it (the forum) all.


Korana Lasić wrote:
My problem with KudoZ isn't the social dynamics but the problematic quality of the output it produces whilst being set up and marketed as some sort of an accomplishment and proof of quality.

Rhetorical: what do you think the 24/7 forum residents are here for?

Korana Lasić wrote:
I don't have to participate in the forum

You don't have to participate in kudoz either. Just let it be!

I'm now compelled to bid farewell to this discussion, but feel free to continue your effort.


'You don't have to participate in kudoz either. Just let it be!'

I don't think the comparison stands as my non-participation in the forum doesn't affect my esteem and/or placement in this market place where I'm trying to lend projects.

I also don't think calling people rats is facilitating any proper communication.

I'm sorry if I had been rude to you. I hope some of your faith in this place and people will've been restored now that I've apologised.

[Edited at 2021-02-09 12:44 GMT]


 
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